PDA

View Full Version : UGC 9 Map Survey Results



Xarlor
April 27th, 2013, 12:06 AM
The map survey results have been tabulated! These results represent a 49.1% participation. Hats off to the community for stepping up and taking the time to fill out the survey.

We were pleasantly surprised to see most of the community is like-minded with only a few outliers.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aulp21YWX9k3dEd0MjZlSFN6czQweDhUZktmekttM 1E#gid=0

Feel free to post your thoughts on the results and any interesting observations you find.

mustardoverlord
April 27th, 2013, 12:31 AM
mostly the averages work, but I think you should definitely listen to plat for the observation that ashville > lakeside

also, please don't weigh the map type with the results and give a map that got like a 2.5 a pass cuz we need more ctf, just take the highest results (if this translates into anything)

billybob
April 27th, 2013, 12:36 AM
Interesting, I dig it... Excellent work as always Xarlor.

I think this does pretty clearly show the community shying away from ctf maps, I hope you guys take that into account next season.


.. Also, why the line graphs? Just curious on the reasoning.

PenguinNinja
April 27th, 2013, 12:43 AM
Honestly disappointed that canalzone wasn't voted for, but what can you do?

If they go that route, Mustard, they'd have to include 4 payload, 2 5cp, 2 koth, and 1 A/D (All the maps > 3.69). The tenth map would be cp_process, followed by cp_steel, and then koth_ashville.

Koobadoobs
April 27th, 2013, 01:55 AM
If they go that route, Mustard, they'd have to include 4 payload, 2 5cp, 2 koth, and 1 A/D (All the maps > 3.69). The tenth map would be cp_process, followed by cp_steel, and then koth_ashville.

Implying that this is a problem? That sounds really great to me.

Muuki
April 27th, 2013, 04:38 AM
Honestly disappointed that canalzone wasn't voted for, but what can you do?

If they go that route, Mustard, they'd have to include 4 payload, 2 5cp, 2 koth, and 1 A/D (All the maps > 3.69). The tenth map would be cp_process, followed by cp_steel, and then koth_ashville.

Isn't this like perfect?

PenguinNinja
April 27th, 2013, 08:47 AM
Not implying a problem, just saying what the season would have to look like.

Xarlor
April 27th, 2013, 10:53 AM
mostly the averages work, but I think you should definitely listen to plat for the observation that ashville > lakeside

Since ashville has been out of the rotation for at least a season and lakeside has not, it will be my recommendation to give lakeside a rest. This is dependent on how playoffs work, too. If the we have 8 regular season maps + 3 playoff week maps (the 4th playoff week being finals), then that's 11 maps. They both might be in!



also, please don't weigh the map type with the results and give a map that got like a 2.5 a pass cuz we need more ctf, just take the highest results (if this translates into anything)

That's why I included the Top 10 tab down at the bottom that shows top rated maps regardless of style - as a comparison and to see what a potential season might look like.


Interesting, I dig it... Excellent work as always Xarlor.

I think this does pretty clearly show the community shying away from ctf maps, I hope you guys take that into account next season.

Thank you billybob. You all did the work, I just made silly tables out of it. ::[:


.. Also, why the line graphs? Just curious on the reasoning.

Line graphs appear to be a jumbled mess, that is true. What they're there for, however, is to quickly identify outliers. For example:

Is Iron consistently at odds with most of the community? Not as often as one might expect.

Asian division loves 5cp a lot more than any other division, but aren't very keen on Payload or A/D.

Admins think canalzone could be in comp with just a few tweaks. Watch out UGC! ::X:

Giraffe
April 27th, 2013, 11:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong please but do the admins percentage on each map, say 5 admins for example, count as much as all the leaders in any of the divisions? (All the leaders in silver for example)

mustardoverlord
April 27th, 2013, 01:55 PM
Honestly disappointed that canalzone wasn't voted for, but what can you do?

If they go that route, Mustard, they'd have to include 4 payload, 2 5cp, 2 koth, and 1 A/D (All the maps > 3.69). The tenth map would be cp_process, followed by cp_steel, and then koth_ashville.

sounds splendid

Hildreth
April 27th, 2013, 03:23 PM
Admins think canalzone could be in comp with just a few tweaks. Watch out UGC! ::X:

I want some of that shit you admins smoke when you think of map picks, must be good shit.

Koobadoobs
April 27th, 2013, 04:10 PM
Admins think canalzone could be in comp with just a few tweaks. Watch out UGC! ::X:

What kind of "tweak" do you guys have in mind that completely changes the gamemode so that it's no longer a game of hiding and capturing points when the other team leaves them? Right now, the more fights you get into, the fewer points you get. :(

PenguinNinja
April 27th, 2013, 04:11 PM
I want some of that shit you admins smoke when you think of map picks, must be good shit.

Don't hate on canalzone2 Hildreth - it's a good map. Really hope it will be in summer season.

And in response to the guy right above me, the more fights you win, on the flank or with the combo, the more points you can cap for free.

Koobadoobs
April 27th, 2013, 04:15 PM
Don't hate on canalzone2 Hildreth - it's a good map. Really hope it will be in summer season.

And in response to the guy right above me, the more fights you win, on the flank or with the combo, the more points you can cap for free.

The fewer fights you get in, the more cap time you get without having to waste time fighting.
What's in your best interest: Walking to a point that they control but don't occupy, or walking to the point they're camping and risking an uber exchange that might not even get you the point, all the while wasting time where their points are going up faster?

Then there's the caster's point of view, where this map is an absolute nightmare.

PenguinNinja
April 27th, 2013, 06:04 PM
The fewer fights you get in, the more cap time you get without having to waste time fighting.
What's in your best interest: Walking to a point that they control but don't occupy, or walking to the point they're camping and risking an uber exchange that might not even get you the point, all the while wasting time where their points are going up faster?

Then there's the caster's point of view, where this map is an absolute nightmare.

There's the incentive of the 6 cap to win. If you control more points, you have an incentive to fight, with the reward of a quick cap of everything.

Additionally, the map rewards good team play in small groups. If you have scout, engi and spy trying to control 2 points, and doing a good job of it, it forces the other team to devote more resources to that part of the map.

If teams do just what you suggest, they aren't really trying to win the game - they are trying to keep it close, by just rotating which three points they have. To get a lead, you have to hold four or more points, and that's hard to do by just avoiding fights.

And in terms of the "risking the uber exchange," how is that a risk? If the other team spends all its time running away, stand your ground on a few key points with your combo and pressure the caps with flank classes. Stick them between a rock and a hard place, and force a fight. If you have charge, you'll want to use it to kill people and create time to cap the points for free. Running kritz can be really solid as well.

smobo
April 27th, 2013, 07:19 PM
but there ARE no key points. if the combo is somewhere just cap something else.

also one side (cant remember which) has such a huge advantage that it starts to play like an A/D map

Koobadoobs
April 27th, 2013, 08:10 PM
By risk the uber exchange I mean risk having to pop uber when you push into an enemy hold. If that happens, the other combo can almost always kite and pop after. That's why A/D maps aren't rolls: the attacking team almost always pops first. If you're avoiding the enemy combo, you don't risk that and you can uber against the small groups of players that you suggest or just roll through them without popping. Either way you're safer.

If there are key points to hold, the map is imbalanced in an entirely different but equally problematic way because it is asymmetrical, meaning that one team is closer to that key point than the other and has an inherent advantage. If there aren't, then there's no reason to hold any area. Going for the all-cap win condition is risky and nearly impossible unless you're a much much better team. If the teams belong in the same div, odds are they won't all-cap each other (ignoring divs lower than silver where anything can happen).

The problem with the map is that any kind of team-based push or strat that you see in tf2 is inferior to strats that maximize cap time and survival. If that makes games too close an random for you, then surely you must agree there's a big problem with this map and game mode.

Xarlor
April 27th, 2013, 08:56 PM
For the record, I was making a joke about canalzone. The admins were an outlier on it. You won't be seeing canalzone outside of a summer season unless community sentiment changes.


Correct me if I'm wrong please but do the admins percentage on each map, say 5 admins for example, count as much as all the leaders in any of the divisions? (All the leaders in silver for example)

An explanation about the Grand Average. The Grand Average is the average of all votes submitted, regardless of division. In the interest of completeness, I added two more columns:

Average (Equal weight per division) - This takes each division's average, then divides by 12.
No admin average (equal weight per division) - Same as above, but divides by 11, excluding admins.

The results are largely similar. Although the ratings themselves change slightly, the same order is kept save for roughly three or four maps that swap places. Furthermore, those are maps well below the Top 10.

Comanglia
April 28th, 2013, 12:36 AM
mostly the averages work, but I think you should definitely listen to plat for the observation that ashville > lakeside

also, please don't weigh the map type with the results and give a map that got like a 2.5 a pass cuz we need more ctf, just take the highest results (if this translates into anything)

Honestly I like both and will play both, but Euro Platinum has Lakeside > Ashville NA Platinum has Ashville > Lakeside so if we include both does this become a coin toss?

Also CTF, personally I am ok playing this in 1 of the 3 seasons in the year, also would help if the halves were shortened a little bit, and Win Condition set to 6 or 7 rather than 10. (for the sake of not having to play the same maps every season)

also I suggest making the most popular maps weighted to the end of the season and the 1st week, with less popular maps on like week 2, week 4, and week 5.

mustardoverlord
April 28th, 2013, 01:08 AM
Honestly I like both and will play both, but Euro Platinum has Lakeside > Ashville NA Platinum has Ashville > Lakeside so if we include both does this become a coin toss?


none of the actually good eu hl teams play in ugc, eu plat is like na silver

Giraffe
April 28th, 2013, 01:09 AM
Mid season matches are some of the best because thats when the top teams meet, after and before then there are a lot fewer good matches, some of the best matchups of this season were played on haunt and barnblitz.

Comanglia
April 28th, 2013, 03:39 AM
Mid season matches are some of the best because thats when the top teams meet, after and before then there are a lot fewer good matches, some of the best matchups of this season were played on haunt and barnblitz.

By popular maps at the end of the season, I meant mostly playoffs. Personally I would like looking forward to the start of the season, and being excited about the end of the season. Which is why I think the "worst" maps should be near the middle. Haunt was a pure tragedy in terms of gameplay value, at least in spectating it. Barnblitz_pro wasn't to bad I actually kinda enjoyed the map, both playing and spectating it, though their were better maps but I am ok with this one.

Koobadoobs
April 28th, 2013, 09:49 AM
By popular maps at the end of the season, I meant mostly playoffs. Personally I would like looking forward to the start of the season, and being excited about the end of the season. Which is why I think the "worst" maps should be near the middle. Haunt was a pure tragedy in terms of gameplay value, at least in spectating it. Barnblitz_pro wasn't to bad I actually kinda enjoyed the map, both playing and spectating it, though their were better maps but I am ok with this one.

Mathematically the closest matches of the season are going to be played in weeks three, four, and five though. That's when you're narrowing down to just one undefeated team and you see the top two teams against each other. There isn't really a "good" time throughout the season for "bad" maps. If we follow the map vote we won't need them though, all the good maps got a lot of votes.

soap
April 28th, 2013, 12:04 PM
Giraffe is about right, Barnblitz held a ton of matchups:

The Ginyu v BPM game

The TS v Gangsta gang

and mTs vs QC

We should try and focus our better maps on certain weeks in the season. If the league wants to run "experimental maps", they should run it in weeks that aren't game changers for the season.

Comanglia
April 28th, 2013, 10:13 PM
Mathematically the closest matches of the season are going to be played in weeks three, four, and five though. That's when you're narrowing down to just one undefeated team and you see the top two teams against each other. There isn't really a "good" time throughout the season for "bad" maps. If we follow the map vote we won't need them though, all the good maps got a lot of votes.

Yeah the map vote is a great and all, but their does become a point I get tired of playing the same maps every season. At some point they're going to have to put in some of the less popular maps or people may become bored with playing the exact same map cycle.

Seasons have 12-14 maps
and the number of maps that have a Average of 3 or higher is 18, and for ones that got 3 or higher for plat it becomes 15. imo we need a wider selection than that.

Koobadoobs
April 28th, 2013, 11:50 PM
Yeah the map vote is a great and all, but their does become a point I get tired of playing the same maps every season. At some point they're going to have to put in some of the less popular maps or people may become bored with playing the exact same map cycle.

Seasons have 12-14 maps
and the number of maps that have a Average of 3 or higher is 18, and for ones that got 3 or higher for plat it becomes 15. imo we need a wider selection than that.

Yeah, IMO I wouldn't mind repeating the same few maps even multiple times a season, but I understand that a large majority prefers variety. My point was more intended to be that the middle of the season is not the time for bad maps. I guess I would say week six and seven are the best time. It's after every division has one undefeated team left, so all the closest matches have likely happened, but it's before the end of the season so it's not a huge factor in playoffs.

As for wider map selection, that's what the testing team has been trying to do. Hopefully we can get maps like vanguard and edifice to the point where they can replace similar maps like gravelpit and gullywash.

quell
April 29th, 2013, 07:35 AM
none of the actually good eu hl teams play in ugc, eu plat is like na silver
::|:

or maybe taste is just a cultural thing. europe has less liking for (shitty) custom maps. i know a lot of people don't like lakeside but if its between lakey and ashville they still pick lakeside.

Tomu
April 29th, 2013, 08:08 AM
::|:

or maybe taste is just a cultural thing. europe has less liking for (shitty) custom maps. i know a lot of people don't like lakeside but if its between lakey and ashville they still pick lakeside.

Ashville isn't too bad a map. It's as shitty as lakeside is. I think EU just picks what they know. Lakeside has always been in ETF2L. So EU teams know it. Ashville...hasn't, so its scary and new. Scary and new in EU = bad, don't touch it.

Watsyurdeal
April 29th, 2013, 05:04 PM
This was definitely interesting to look at, thanks for taking the time to tally up the results.


Good to know that plat and other divisions mostly agree on certain maps, like badwater and gullywash.

mustardoverlord
May 1st, 2013, 12:22 PM
if you guys get "tired" of having a stable map pool then you should probably quit competitive first person shooters because that's kinda supposed to be one of their default traits

infinite-
May 1st, 2013, 12:47 PM
if you guys get "tired" of having a stable map pool then you should probably quit competitive first person shooters because that's kinda supposed to be one of their default traits

Up to a point you are correct, but having new battlefields to fight on is a positive thing no matter what the game. There will always be staple favorites, but a large amount of folks do enjoy playing custom maps (equally evident from the map survey). Trying to make people think the "right" way to play TF2 is to only play 5 year old maps isn't really accurate. New maps are one of many factors that keep our community fresh and interesting.

tranche
May 1st, 2013, 01:18 PM
if you guys get "tired" of having a stable map pool then you should probably quit competitive first person shooters because that's kinda supposed to be one of their default traits

Hey man, the best competitive map out there (process) has only been in rotation a short while. Nothing stopping mapmakers from coming up with more great ones.

Candle
May 1st, 2013, 06:39 PM
none of the actually good eu hl teams play in ugc, eu plat is like na silver



eu plat is like na silver

not sure if serious

Mage24365
May 3rd, 2013, 08:55 AM
not sure if serious

He's not saying that the top European teams are bad.
He's saying that the top European teams play in ETF2L, not UGC. As a result, the tier below them in ETF2L becomes the top tier here, which makes the skill levels comparable to those of silver players.

Candle
May 3rd, 2013, 05:01 PM
He's not saying that the top European teams are bad.
He's saying that the top European teams play in ETF2L, not UGC. As a result, the tier below them in ETF2L becomes the top tier here, which makes the skill levels comparable to those of silver players.

it's well over silver, that's just it.

soap
May 3rd, 2013, 07:48 PM
a large amount of folks do enjoy playing custom maps (equally evident from the map survey).

Unless I am blind, Stock and Valve supported maps won in every single category.

infinite-
May 12th, 2013, 10:34 AM
Unless I am blind, Stock and Valve supported maps won in every single category.

I don't think anyone (including myself) was surprised to see valve maps win in every category. These are staple maps that have always been, and always will be a huge part of the game. Problem is, this gives you 1 season of maps. I don't think anyone here wants to play the same 6 maps, 3 seasons per year, for the next 4 years. It's also important to realize that several of the "valve" staple maps were once custom maps that were good enough to make it into TF2.

The interesting part of the survey for me was the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most voted in maps. These were by far mostly custom maps, or custom turned valve maps. These maps provide the variety to the core 6 or 7 maps.

What was also interesting was that map preference was similar across all divisions. Some on here claimed lower divisions had different map interests but that has proven to be not the case. This will make a good basis for map selection in seasons to come.

Thanks for the participation folks, and thanks to Xarlor for organizing the survey.

mustardoverlord
May 13th, 2013, 02:46 PM
Up to a point you are correct, but having new battlefields to fight on is a positive thing no matter what the game.

in what other games is that the case? (don't say tfc lol)

such an authoritative statement, but look at, say, cs, and you'll see that's not always the case


There will always be staple favorites, but a large amount of folks do enjoy playing custom maps (equally evident from the map survey). Trying to make people think the "right" way to play TF2 is to only play 5 year old maps isn't really accurate. New maps are one of many factors that keep our community fresh and interesting.

you are conflating playing custom maps with playing new maps. the fact of the matter is, there simply are not enough valve maps that are both fun and competitively viable, so we need(ed?) the help from custom map makers. without them, we'd still be playing well or some shit. however, there's a difference between using custom maps to make a better map pool and using them to relieve boredom of the good maps we've already played.

the custom maps that did well in the map survey are all "staple" maps already, custom or no.


Hey man, the best competitive map out there (process) has only been in rotation a short while. Nothing stopping mapmakers from coming up with more great ones.

yes, and we needed scorpio to make process because 6s simply didn't have enough maps that everyone could agree on at the time, so the demand was there. I want process to be part of the map pool forever, while the people against a stable map pool want it replaced after a season or two. am I any less supportive of custom maps than they are?


I don't think anyone here wants to play the same 6 maps, 3 seasons per year, for the next 4 years.

I do!


It's also important to realize that several of the "valve" staple maps were once custom maps that were good enough to make it into TF2.

The interesting part of the survey for me was the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most voted in maps. These were by far mostly custom maps, or custom turned valve maps. These maps provide the variety to the core 6 or 7 maps.


Again, conflating the use of custom maps with the need to change up the map pool

PenguinNinja
May 13th, 2013, 08:12 PM
you are conflating playing custom maps with playing new maps. the fact of the matter is, there simply are not enough valve maps that are both fun and competitively viable, so we need(ed?) the help from custom map makers. without them, we'd still be playing well or some shit. however, there's a difference between using custom maps to make a better map pool and using them to relieve boredom of the good maps we've already played.

the custom maps that did well in the map survey are all "staple" maps already, custom or no.


I think you are missing infinite's underlying point, which is that those custom maps only have become staple because the league gave them a chance. As you said yourself, if we didn't play customs at one point, we wouldn't have the pool of 9 or so staples to play now. I remember when cp_steel was played 3-4 seasons ago, and people thought it was going to be awful. Turns out its a pretty good map for HL. Infinite's point is that if we stop at 9 or 10, we're going to miss other maps that ARE worth playing. Of course we'll have to sort through some flops, but there are good cutom maps still in development that deserve a chance in the game (see cp_edifice or pl_borneo_whatever_version_its_on_now).

I don't think Infinite is conflating anything. Breaking down the underlying thought process, which you hinted at with your well reference:
- We want the best set of maps.
- Historically, some custom maps have been some of the best maps for HL.
- There are still new custom maps being developed for competitive HL.
- We should give those maps at least a chance to prove themselves, so we can tell if they deserve play more than the maps we already have (need to play custom maps in order to see if we should change the map pool).

Its worth noting that since UGC allows all teams to vote for maps, it needs maps to get exposure in the whole league so people can get experience on it and decide if its worth playing in future seasons.

Honestly, some of the valve maps are really stale and not good for HL, like cp_granary. I'm happy to see process get some play, and I hope process replaces granary in future seasons. The point is we don't get to put new maps into the HL stable unless we take the risk with a few custom maps from time to time.

smobo
May 14th, 2013, 09:52 AM
cp_steel sucks so bad why would you even bring that up.

Infinite is right in that we need to sift through Barnblitzes to find the Processes that most of the community likes. However, the mistake is when we take a map like Barnblitz and then bring it into another season. I'd rather play Gullywash, Badwater, and Viaduct all season than have to play a bad map just for the sake of variety. In that way, i agree with mustard.

Basically, restrict untested custom maps to summer, but keep up the map testing for those that wish to participate.

Cold--
May 14th, 2013, 12:12 PM
cp_steel sucks so bad why would you even bring that up.

Stop giving Steel such a bad rep. It's probably one of the best HL maps out there. You're breaking my heart, Smobo. Stahp. </3 ;_;

tranche
May 14th, 2013, 02:57 PM
Steel confirmed pretty terrible.