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Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 05:05 PM
http://www.ugcleague.com/home_tf2h.cfm


Posting in case anyone wants to leave some feedback or has questions. :]

Niko Jims
April 16th, 2013, 05:09 PM
You forgot NA Plat unless there is a reason for not putting it there.

Turnip
April 16th, 2013, 05:10 PM
Now the question becomes, which team will pick Haunt as their map of choice.

Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Now the question becomes, which team will pick Haunt as their map of choice.

Haunt is not allowed.

Added Platinum. Thanks for noticing that!

Karl
April 16th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Marathon 3hr games incoming. Is the default time still 9:30? Could be 12 before the 3rd map is underway...From my experience I play like shit when it gets late.

Block_
April 16th, 2013, 05:20 PM
Do both teams have to win two games, or does the team in winners bracket only have to win one game?

Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 05:21 PM
Is the default time still 9:30?

Default times are still observed, unless teams agree in Match Comms if they want to play earlier.


Do both teams have to win two games, or does the team in winners bracket only have to win one game?

It's Best-of-3.

Turnip
April 16th, 2013, 05:22 PM
Haunt is not allowed.

Added Platinum. Thanks for noticing that!

This makes me so happy.

Turnip
April 16th, 2013, 05:26 PM
Also, for the single elimination brackets, how should ties be decided? (i.e. if it's 2-2 after the first 30 mins on a CP map, would we play 1 more full round, or would it be first to cap the middle point?)

Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 05:55 PM
Also, for the single elimination brackets, how should ties be decided? (i.e. if it's 2-2 after the first 30 mins on a CP map, would we play 1 more full round, or would it be first to cap the middle point?)

It goes to a Golden Cap.

Penguin
April 16th, 2013, 06:26 PM
Haunt is not allowed.

This is the single greatest decision UGC has ever made.

Phelix
April 16th, 2013, 06:53 PM
Is there a particular time we need to tell the other team what maps we choose? Not that we're trying to delay telling them, just wondering how long we have to decide

Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 07:08 PM
Is there a particular time we need to tell the other team what maps we choose? Not that we're trying to delay telling them, just wondering how long we have to decide

Map choices need to be posted in Match Comms by this Friday, April 19th. I'll add this to the news.

pudding_cup
April 16th, 2013, 07:12 PM
It's Best-of-3.

Then this is NOT a double elimination playoff bracket. Why should the loser's bracket team get to lose 3 maps before they get knocked out when the winner's bracket team gets knocked out after 2? It's not fair and no other league does it this way.

Xarlor
April 16th, 2013, 07:58 PM
Then this is NOT a double elimination playoff bracket. Why should the loser's bracket team get to lose 3 maps before they get knocked out when the winner's bracket team gets knocked out after 2? It's not fair and no other league does it this way.

:DONT_KNOW:
http://www.ugcleague.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5555

Only 6/43 teams responded to the survey to date. We went with the feedback we received as was summarized in that thread. The reasoning behind going with a Best-of-3 is also in that thread.

quintosh
April 16th, 2013, 09:01 PM
wow, instead of focusing on scrims and discussing strategies you also need to worry about your picks against the team in the upper bracket, and as an upper bracket team you have exactly 13 hours (10 PM CEST is kind of a shitty time too considering most people work/go to school) to pick your maps against the team winning the lower bracket

can you not add a day more to it?

pudding_cup
April 16th, 2013, 09:04 PM
You're basing this decision off of 6 votes? Did it occur to you that only teams who might care enough about this to vote are the few teams actually in contention for winning? UGC always complains about not having enough community involvement, but where was the incentive for all 46 of those teams to vote? Not that I really think it should've gone to a vote at all. It's a double-elimination playoff system and not a triple-elimination one. I read the thread and there was overwhelming support for the winner's bracket team to be up one map because that is what's fair. It might not be as "grand" but the extra matches that are getting played because of the double elimination should give people enough excitement to watch.

I am a mummy
April 16th, 2013, 09:13 PM
So we are allowed to start a finals match early? Let's say we want to play one of the full matches on Sunday and play the remaining 2 on Monday? If our opponents agree to that, is that ok?

Phelix
April 16th, 2013, 09:30 PM
wow, instead of focusing on scrims and discussing strategies you also need to worry about your picks against the team in the upper bracket, and as an upper bracket team you have exactly 13 hours (10 PM CEST is kind of a shitty time too considering most people work/go to school) to pick your maps against the team winning the lower bracket

can you not add a day more to it?

If you didn't have to tell them until Saturday they'd only have 1 1/2 days to scrim two maps that presumably you'd have the advantage on to begin with. I'm all for the upper bracket team having a slight advantage because they're coming in undefeated but that seems over the top.

quintosh
April 16th, 2013, 09:35 PM
If you didn't have to tell them until Saturday they'd only have 1 1/2 days to scrim two maps that presumably you'd have the advantage on to begin with. I'm all for the upper bracket team having a slight advantage because they're coming in undefeated but that seems over the top.

i find the idea of letting the other team know before dumb at all but that's probably because i watch a lot of 6v6 games where you have to deal with a 6-8 maps pool instead of 12

ukm
April 16th, 2013, 09:52 PM
rofl

upper bracket teams getting FUCKED_UPON

guess people were confused about what the double in double elim means

Watsyurdeal
April 16th, 2013, 10:48 PM
Thanks for clarifying what we are and are not allowed to pick, my Med was wanting to do Gravelpit lolololol :D

I am a mummy
April 16th, 2013, 10:51 PM
Thanks for clarifying what we are and are not allowed to pick, my Med was wanting to do Gravelpit lolololol :D

We wanted to do dustbowl.

#iron2pro

Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 10:56 PM
If you didn't have to tell them until Saturday they'd only have 1 1/2 days to scrim two maps that presumably you'd have the advantage on to begin with. I'm all for the upper bracket team having a slight advantage because they're coming in undefeated but that seems over the top.

Clarification: Last season we did map picks on the Friday before HL Finals.

Skarlett
April 16th, 2013, 11:25 PM
rofl

upper bracket teams getting FUCKED_UPON

guess people were confused about what the double in double elim means

^

seriously what the fuck was even the point of winning the upper bracket? to pick 2/3 of the grand final maps?

lolllll

Cold--
April 16th, 2013, 11:29 PM
seriously what the fuck was even the point of winning the upper bracket? to pick 2/3 of the grand final maps?

It is one of the advantages, yes. But if you think it's the only perk then you've completely lost the plot.

RawrSpoon
April 16th, 2013, 11:46 PM
It is one of the advantages, yes. But if you think it's the only perk then you've completely lost the plot.

But it IS the only perk. At the end of the day, upper braket loses for dropping two maps in playoffs and lower braket loses for dropping three maps in playoffs.

Max!
April 17th, 2013, 12:07 AM
rofl

upper bracket teams getting FUCKED_UPON

guess people were confused about what the double in double elim means


^

seriously what the fuck was even the point of winning the upper bracket? to pick 2/3 of the grand final maps?

lolllll


But it IS the only perk. At the end of the day, upper braket loses for dropping two maps in playoffs and lower braket loses for dropping three maps in playoffs.

::!:::!:::!:::!:::!:::!:

Cold--
April 17th, 2013, 12:16 AM
But it IS the only perk. At the end of the day, upper braket loses for dropping two maps in playoffs and lower braket loses for dropping three maps in playoffs.

I am not going to engage in this conversation as we could argue back and forth all day about how to tweak the system for a different experience. Time is very limited right now.

downpour
April 17th, 2013, 12:28 AM
I am not going to engage in this conversation as we could argue back and forth all day about how to tweak the system for a different experience. Time is very limited right now.
i disagree
this is an important issue because it wasnt clear to anyone that this is the way the playoffs were going to go.
what the fuck is the point of staying in the upper bracket if it doesnt give an advantage (hint: choosing 2 maps doesnt give an advantage)

overseer
April 17th, 2013, 12:30 AM
I am not going to engage in this conversation as we could argue back and forth all day about how to tweak the system for a different experience. Time is very limited right now.

Added you to friends; let's discuss this in a manner that saves time.

Xarlor
April 17th, 2013, 12:33 AM
You're basing this decision off of 6 votes? Did it occur to you that only teams who might care enough about this to vote are the few teams actually in contention for winning?

That post went up the week before playoffs started. The survey went out right after the first playoff match. Two NA Plat teams replied. Yours was one. Your leader is happy with the results.


UGC always complains about not having enough community involvement, but where was the incentive for all 46 of those teams to vote? Not that I really think it should've gone to a vote at all. It's a double-elimination playoff system and not a triple-elimination one. I read the thread and there was overwhelming support for the winner's bracket team to be up one map because that is what's fair. It might not be as "grand" but the extra matches that are getting played because of the double elimination should give people enough excitement to watch.

One of the options for Finals was exactly what you suggest. How much heat would we have received if we went with Option 2 without consulting the community? I'm asking because my original intention, before ever creating that thread, was to go with something similar to Option 2. Instead, several community members came to me requesting we think about it or discuss it with the community. I said, "Sure, I have no problem talking about it."

So I posted, there was discussion, we narrowed it down to two options. We sent out a survey to get an accurate count of interest (13% apparently). Is 6 results a low data set? Yes. Should we have just went with Option 2 without discussing it with community? Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

I apologize Pudding Cup. I really was trying to allow the community to determine their Final format instead of mandating it. :SCRATCH:

Harbleu
April 17th, 2013, 12:34 AM
Added you to friends; let's discuss this in a manner that saves time.
i don't know what you want to discuss. this is something you should bring up before you win the UB finals, not after. if you would have lost you wouldn't be complaining about it. its been decided. maybe if your team gave more input before playoffs started we would be going with another system.

PoisoCaine
April 17th, 2013, 12:34 AM
"Yo this format doesn't give any advantage to the winner's bracket champ, in fact, it gives the edge to the team that already lost a map"

"No it doesn't"

"how does it not?"

"Because it's the one we picked"

downpour
April 17th, 2013, 12:38 AM
One of the options for Finals was exactly what you suggest. How much heat would we have received if we went with Option 2 without consulting the community? I'm asking because my original intention, before ever creating that thread, was to go with something similar to Option 2. Instead, several community members came to me requesting we think about it or discuss it with the community. I said, "Sure, I have no problem talking about it."


I'm not mad at you, because i think youre responding very well to this actually and I appreciate that you seem to be very calmly stating what you actually did. For that I say thanks.
HOWEVER
It doesn't matter what people voted for, because thats not how double elimination brackets work.
Double Elimination is literally described by "when a team/individual has lost 2 matches, they are out of the tournament." You can't change the finals to be something other than that or else it makes the path to the finals meaningless. What is the point of going undefeated if it doesn't give you an advantage? Every league that follows a double elim bracket does it this way, why would you do it any other?

More importantly, why can't you change it now? No finals have been played, and the vote was cast while the playoffs were going anyway, so what would changing it now affect?


i don't know what you want to discuss. this is something you should bring up before you win the UB finals, not after. if you would have lost you wouldn't be complaining about it. its been decided. maybe if your team gave more input before playoffs started we would be going with another system.

come on harb, if you were in the same position as ginyu you wouldn't be taking this shit either.

PoisoCaine
April 17th, 2013, 12:42 AM
I agree with harb insofar that this conversation ALREADY HAPPENED and I thought the consensus was that people would prefer the most fair method (i.e. one game advantage) even if it's not the most convenient time-wise.

*re-reads*

Yep.

So yeah if you're upset now and you didn't post earlier, it's kind of silly. On the other hand, the idea that you can't gist what is the best thing to do from that thread (i.e. consensus) is also pretty silly.

Harbleu
April 17th, 2013, 12:43 AM
come on harb, if you were in the same position as ginyu you wouldn't be taking this shit either.
im the one that suggested this playoff system. i spent an hour talking to fornaught about it. so no dont try to say i would do that.

downpour
April 17th, 2013, 12:45 AM
im the one that suggested this playoff system. i spent an hour talking to fornaught about it. so no dont try to say i would do that.

may i ask why?
like why would any league intentionally do this?
what are the positives to doing it this way?

PoisoCaine
April 17th, 2013, 12:46 AM
im the one that suggested this playoff system. i spent an hour talking to fornaught about it. so no dont try to say i would do that.


Then, it'd probably be good for you to explain why it's fair the winner's bracket team, if they lose in the finals, would have lost 2 maps, whereas if the loser's bracket team loses, they will have lost three.

As far as i can tell, the best way to do this would be to let the winner's bracket champ pick a map, Loser's bracket champ pick a map, and the winner's bracket team picks the tiebreaker. Start on the loser's bracket map, and play to Bo3 with a one-game advantage to the WB team.


That way, no team will lose any less than two complete matches on a map to come in 2nd place.

Also, I couldn't care less about who wins on monday.

overseer
April 17th, 2013, 12:46 AM
i don't know what you want to discuss. this is something you should bring up before you win the UB finals, not after. if you would have lost you wouldn't be complaining about it. its been decided. maybe if your team gave more input before playoffs started we would be going with another system.

You don't know my character well enough to judge my intentions. You care about winning far more than I do. I rather like you, especially considering my fondness for marisa, and I'll be satisfied with this season even if we lose to mTs but that doesn't mean I have to silence myself from speaking an obvious truth to avoid misconceptions with you. (I did just speak with another one of the admins who encouraged me to post even though I expected this sort of response from at least one person on your team.)

I can understand that UGC probably won't change anything since it's too close to the season end, but it's foolish to not realize the problem here and I don't see how you can't agree with that.

Xarlor
April 17th, 2013, 12:52 AM
I'm not mad at you, because i think youre responding very well to this actually and I appreciate that you seem to be very calmly stating what you actually did. For that I say thanks.

No, thank YOU!



More importantly, why can't you change it now? No finals have been played, and the vote was cast while the playoffs were going anyway, so what would changing it now affect?


It doesn't matter to me, honestly. It really doesn't. I'd like for everyone to be happy with how it plays out. I'm content with letting the UB team choose the format as their reward for going undefeated. Will the LB team agree to the UB's decision? If so, go for it! It's your finals match. Both formats are valid options so it truly is the two team's decision.

Of course, what if the teams disagree on the format? What do you want us as admins to do? Force option 2? If so, I know the UB team won't care, but please realize we'll get completely blasted for being wishy-washy and caving in when the format was already decided. Again, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Harbleu
April 17th, 2013, 12:54 AM
You don't know my character well enough to judge my intentions. You care about winning far more than I do. I rather like you, especially considering my fondness for marisa, and I'll be satisfied with this season even if we lose to mTs but that doesn't mean I have to silence myself from speaking an obvious truth to avoid misconceptions with you. (I did just speak with another one of the admins who encouraged me to post even though I expected this sort of response from at least one person on your team.)

I can understand that UGC probably won't change anything since it's too close to the season end, but it's foolish to not realize the problem here and I don't see how you can't agree with that.
you can talk with an admin if you want. im just saying if UGC were to change the system it would reflect badly on the league, regardless if the current system isn't optimal. please don't assume we would do the same if we had won though. we knew what the finals system was before we even played the UB final and we were ok with it regardless if we won or lost. so if we end up beating bpm and facing you in the grand final that is the system we expect to use. don't think we'd be trying to gay you over or anything, it is just the system that was decided on and is the one we planned for.

Max!
April 17th, 2013, 12:54 AM
That post went up the week before playoffs started. The survey went out right after the first playoff match. Two NA Plat teams replied. Yours was one. Your leader is happy with the results.


to be fair i have no idea what im doing ever

i play sniper for gods sake

Xarlor
April 17th, 2013, 01:00 AM
As far as i can tell, the best way to do this would be to let the winner's bracket champ pick a map, Loser's bracket champ pick a map, and the winner's bracket team picks the tiebreaker. Start on the loser's bracket map, and play to Bo3 with a one-game advantage to the WB team.

This is Option 2. Why would you have a tiebreaker? If WB has a one-game advantage, then they only need to win 1 of the first 2 maps to be champs. LB needs to win both of the first 2 maps to be champ. Either outcome, there is no need for a 3rd map, right?

Again, this is option 2 with the advantage being WB gets to pick and play the first map as the reward for being undefeated.

pudding_cup
April 17th, 2013, 01:03 AM
I'm bringing this up now because it was just posted today that this is how the finals are going to be played out not because we just happened to win the UB. I wasn't an active player until the second week of playoffs so I didn't really pay that much attention to things that were going on. And to be honest any thread on these forums can be pretty much easily ignored without much thought because they all sit in the pool.

Also 6 teams is hardly a representation of the community anyway. It's fine to gauge how the community feels about something. But to use a vote that 6 teams participate in and then say that's a reflection of what the community thinks and wants is absurd. You either force all those teams to vote or just make a decision based on the feedback from that thread. Right now the format is just inherently unfair to the UB team and that is a fact that cannot be denied.

I like the way esea does it where the admins just pick the two maps. You could maybe have the LB team pick the first map and the WB team pick the second idk.

PoisoCaine
April 17th, 2013, 01:04 AM
This is Option 2. Why would you have a tiebreaker? If WB has a one-game advantage, then they only need to win 1 of the first 2 maps to be champs. LB needs to win both of the first 2 maps to be champ. Either outcome, there is no need for a 3rd map, right?

Again, this is option 2 with the advantage being WB gets to pick and play the first map as the reward for being undefeated.

Ah you're right. Still the best option. Rawrspoon mentioned a twist where the Winner's bracket champ picks two maps and then the LB champ eliminates one, and picks one of their own. You start on the winner's bracket champ's map and play the two, if necessary.

Edit: Again, i couldn't give a shit who wins on monday

ukm
April 17th, 2013, 01:16 AM
harbleu is so good he foresaw we would lose upper finals and knew that by getting a ridiculous playoff format put in place he would throw ginyu on tilt thus securing our eventual championship medals

all hail the prince of tf2

Harbleu
April 17th, 2013, 01:23 AM
harbleu is so good he foresaw we would lose upper finals and knew that by getting a ridiculous playoff format put in place he would throw ginyu on tilt thus securing our eventual championship medals

all hail the prince of tf2
i foresaw this as a system that i thought would make the most interesting grand finals. i personally have always hated the system where the team from the UB starts with a 1 map advantage. if that team wins the first map you can end up having a 20 minute grand finals and that is really anticlimactic. the other suggestion i brought up was having 2 bo3s where the team from LB has to win two while the UB only has to win one, this would guarantee that there are at least 2 maps played but would also potentially mean the grand finals would carry on until thursday. i feel having the grand finals all on one day makes it a lot more interesting. this system ends up ultimately provided the most entertaining grand finals and if their team is saying they don't care so much about winning it then should be the system that you want. yes it provides the least advantage to the UB team but nobody had brought up the complaint till know. not knowing how the grand finals system was is not an excuse for waiting this late to bring it up.

shit i formatted my post as if you were on ginyu. just imagine when im saying you guys i mean ginyu

downpour
April 17th, 2013, 01:28 AM
I agree with you for the most part except for:


not knowing how the grand finals system was is not an excuse for waiting this late to bring it up.

Most people were expecting it to be a standard double elim format, especially because this is the first season with the format, I don't think anybody was expecting that they would have to vote or discuss how a double elim works

Harbleu
April 17th, 2013, 01:38 AM
Most people were expecting it to be a standard double elim format, especially because this is the first season with the format, I don't think anybody was expecting that they would have to vote or discuss how a double elim works
True there are teams that may not have known what the format was, but I know members of ginyu browse these forums and the thread was on the front page of HL discussion for a good month. If they chose to not go in it and post their opinions on it that's their doing. I went out of my way to contact Fornaught or Xarlor (can't remember which one it was) once the discussion started because I wanted to make sure the format was one that made for an interesting finals. Like I said we knew the system going into the UB finals and were ok with it. The fact that its trying to be changed now bothers me. If ginyu would have brought it up before the UB finals I would be more inclined to agree to changing it. Then again we still have the LB finals to play against BPM so we'll probably just lose that :p

pudding_cup
April 17th, 2013, 01:40 AM
Yeah it makes no sense for the playoffs to be double elimination until the grand finals. A best of 3 would be more fun to watch probably, but if there was going to be a BO3 then the playoffs should've been single elim from the start.

Karl
April 17th, 2013, 01:47 AM
This is Option 2. Why would you have a tiebreaker? If WB has a one-game advantage, then they only need to win 1 of the first 2 maps to be champs. LB needs to win both of the first 2 maps to be champ. Either outcome, there is no need for a 3rd map, right?

Again, this is option 2 with the advantage being WB gets to pick and play the first map as the reward for being undefeated.

This is how every single double elimination tournament that I ever participated in operated. So many of these from youth sports lol, I mean its weird to reduce the advantage of the UB team. Double elimination is pretty self explanatory imo but who knows.

Karl
April 17th, 2013, 01:50 AM
Yeah it makes no sense for the playoffs to be double elimination until the grand finals. A best of 3 would be more fun to watch probably, but if there was going to be a BO3 then the playoffs should've been single elim from the start.

It defeats the purpose of it being a double elimination lol. Judging from a minority vote does not turn out well.

Professor_Frink
April 17th, 2013, 03:20 AM
My two cents: I heard that this was going to be double elimination and thought that meant if you lost twice, you're out. Apparently not. So I can see why some people are upset as it wasn't apparent from the start that it worked this way (e.g. not really "double elimination")

But there is an even stranger scenario in the iron league: The upper bracket team will be facing a team they have already beaten in the tourney! Why should the upper bracket team have to beat a team three times in one tourney and only suffer one total loss while the lower bracket team can lose to the upper bracket team a total of two times and then "win" by beating them twice?!

This really doesn't make much sense unless the upper bracket team is a game up...

Disclosure: I am on said upper bracket team in iron league.

quell
April 17th, 2013, 04:01 AM
My two cents: I heard that this was going to be double elimination and thought that meant if you lost twice, you're out. Apparently not. So I can see why some people are upset as it wasn't apparent from the start that it worked this way (e.g. not really "double elimination")

But there is an even stranger scenario in the iron league: The upper bracket team will be facing a team they have already beaten in the tourney! Why should the upper bracket team have to beat a team three times in one tourney and only suffer one total loss while the lower bracket team can lose to the upper bracket team a total of two times and then "win" by beating them twice?!

This really doesn't make much sense unless the upper bracket team is a game up...

cause its how the playoffs are structured. there was always a chance of facing them again with the old system, i guess with the new system you're a bit unlucky.

MelonLord
April 17th, 2013, 07:03 AM
When voting took place, I was aware that although the best of three system would be used to decide the victor, the system would still hold out that the UB team would need to lose twice to be eliminated while the LB team would only need to lose once. Because the best of three system replaced what would otherwise be a single map, I figured that those elimination rules would stand true.
Although best of three maps seemed like a good idea, it isn't fair to deny the undefeated team the same chance the LB team had if they suffer their first loss of playoffs.

Xarlor
April 17th, 2013, 11:12 AM
Most people were expecting it to be a standard double elim format, especially because this is the first season with the format, I don't think anybody was expecting that they would have to vote or discuss how a double elim works

As I said in my previous post, I thought so too! Also, one could argue that in past seasons we broke away from the single elimination format in the Finals by doing a Best-of-3. Granted, both teams were on equal footing entering the Finals. Still, all of a sudden a single elimination tournament turns into a double-elimination tournament just for the Finals.



Also 6 teams is hardly a representation of the community anyway. It's fine to gauge how the community feels about something. But to use a vote that 6 teams participate in and then say that's a reflection of what the community thinks and wants is absurd. You either force all those teams to vote or just make a decision based on the feedback from that thread. Right now the format is just inherently unfair to the UB team and that is a fact that cannot be denied.

Noted. I went back and tallied all the posts:

Some form of Best-of-3 format - 10
UB chooses 1 map to play in full. If lose, BO3 - 3
Straight double elim (Two maps, UB wins 1, they're champs) - 6
Two BO3 matches - 1

Out of 20 people to weigh in, 11 wanted a best-of-3 in some way with another 3 wanting a BO3 only if UB lost a one-off map first. So the crux of the matter now is the fairness of how to run some sort of BO3 format.

That brings us back to Option 3 from the original post, though most preferred it reversed. Also, each map should be played in full.



Finals 3 maps where each team chooses a map and a 3rd tiebreaker map (if needed) is chosen by UGC. Each map will be played in FULL as in regular season (5 caps on 5cp, BO3 on Payload and A/D, 4 caps on KOTH). Teams may agree to play only halves in 5CP and KOTH only.

If UB loses the Best-of-3 above: UB team chooses 1 map. This map is played in full as in regular season.

We can modify the BO3 above where UB team also chooses map 3 (instead of UGC).
Or we can go with straight double-elimination. UB wins 1 map, it's done, but only 6 posters preferred that.

I really wish, and I do mean REALLY wish these discussions and disagreements were brought up when we asked for input. That sort of was the goal of that thread :VAVA:

quintosh
April 17th, 2013, 02:31 PM
those things happen when you leave it up to the NA platinum and gold division and even then just leaders instead of asking everyone

pudding_cup
April 17th, 2013, 03:59 PM
It seemed to me in that thread that most people were going for option 2 or 3 reversed. Even that option 3 still relied on the principle that the UB team has some sort of map advantage because if you treat the BO3 as one map or one loss there was still the Thursday match that the LB team had to win. But now that the Thursday map is gone it creates an imbalance. That map doesn't even have to played on Thursday but without that extra map the LB team basically receives little to no penalty for losing. Is being able to pick an extra map really enough compensation for the UB team?

But if one BO3 is how we're gonna do this shit then whatever I'm fine with it. Just take these thoughts in consideration for next season.


I really wish, and I do mean REALLY wish these discussions and disagreements were brought up when we asked for input. That sort of was the goal of that thread :VAVA:

Then I would suggest making these discussions more of a priority somehow and not just thrown in with the rest of the garbage that gets posted on these forums. Until yesterday I thought the finals format was going to be a choice of a couple different options that would happen in match comms between the teams because that's what a couple people told me. I'm not going to use ignorance as an excuse, but whenever these kinds of threads get made, whether it's map voting or whatever, they're always just sort of dropped into the forums, or worse the team leader forums, without anything denoting how important they are. Even this very thread has been moved around about 3 times since it was posted because I guess you guys are setting up a new separate forum for news stuff?

Cold--
April 17th, 2013, 04:25 PM
.Even this very thread has been moved around about 3 times since it was posted because I guess you guys are setting up a new separate forum for news stuff?

Sorry about that. We are working to organize the forums better so things are more easily available.

Edge
April 18th, 2013, 09:41 AM
Representing the UB winners in Aus/NZ.

I told my team individually the format of the Final, and each person had the exact same reaction saying that they thought this was a double elimination tournament and that an extra map pick was hardly an advantage.

I'm more than happy to have a 3 map final, but I do believe however that UB should go into the Final 1 up. I think there is still time to make this change, and I would appreciate if the Admins consider the amendment if it is supported by the rest of the community.

If you play the same team you played this week in the Grand Final, a victory for your team would mean you had to win 3 maps, while a win to the other team would be in just 2 map wins.

Cold--
April 18th, 2013, 11:37 AM
Edge, I'm poking the other admins with a big stick as we speak. Pray that Fornaught does not chop my head off.

Xarlor
April 18th, 2013, 12:13 PM
Before we decide to change it, this is what we are considering:


Finals 3 maps. UB chooses map 1 and 3. LB chooses map 2. Each map will be played in FULL as in regular season (5 caps on 5cp, BO3 on Payload and A/D, 4 caps on KOTH). Teams may agree to play only halves in 5CP and KOTH only.

If UB loses the Best-of-3 above: UB team chooses 1 map. This map is played in full as in regular season.

It keeps the BO3 format, but still makes it so LB has to win both the BO3 series and the final 4th map. The UB only needs to win either the BO3 series or the final 4th map.

Is this a fair compromise?

Pegman
April 18th, 2013, 12:19 PM
Before we decide to change it, this is what we are considering:


It keeps the BO3 format, but still makes it so LB has to win both the BO3 series and the final 4th map. The UB only needs to win either the BO3 series or the final 4th map.

Is this a fair compromise?

Would the 4th map be played Thursday or directly following the BO3?

Giraffe
April 18th, 2013, 12:20 PM
You mean LB chooses map 3 right?

m4risa
April 18th, 2013, 12:22 PM
Not really, at least for us. Assuming we do make it to finals, our team won't even be able to practice the two maps for grand finals since our Medic and Soldier will be at ESEA LAN this weekend, they will be getting back barely before the Monday 9:30 PM EST matches. The two map choices from the upper bracket really do have a large impact on how difficult our game will be. Very poor scheduling for UGC to conduct the grand finals right after ESEA LAN.

Xarlor
April 18th, 2013, 12:23 PM
Would the 4th map be played Thursday or directly following the BO3?

Up to the teams, I'd say. If LB wins maps 1 and 2, then probably can be played right after. If the BO3 goes through all 3 maps, then it would be up to them if they want to keep going or reschedule.


You mean LB chooses map 3 right?

Sorry, I meant UB chooses 1 and 3, LB chooses 2. Fixed.

Harbleu
April 18th, 2013, 12:48 PM
Before we decide to change it, this is what we are considering:


It keeps the BO3 format, but still makes it so LB has to win both the BO3 series and the final 4th map. The UB only needs to win either the BO3 series or the final 4th map.

Is this a fair compromise?
Again this change shouldn't be made without the consent of the team from the LB. Teams went into the UB final expecting a certain system. If we knew winning the UB would give us that much of an advantage we would have put a lot more emphasis on it. Changing it now would be one of the worst things UGC could do.

I agree for future seasons the format should definitely be different but this is the format that was chosen for this season. This is the format we prepared for.

Cold--
April 18th, 2013, 01:08 PM
I agree for future seasons the format should definitely be different but this is the format that was chosen for this season. This is the format we prepared for.

For future seasons, because we are a community league, we need more feedback. We put in a lot of effort (Xarlor, etc) to send out questionnaires and to remind team leaders to get back to us... with measly results. It is so sad that so few people responded, and yet we get so much static on the forums for not doing enough.

..and if we try to change anything to make accommodations, we're just making things worse? Man. Lose-lose.

:[

I am a mummy
April 18th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Again this change shouldn't be made without the consent of the team from the LB. Teams went into the UB final expecting a certain system. If we knew winning the UB would give us that much of an advantage we would have put a lot more emphasis on it. Changing it now would be one of the worst things UGC could do.

Maybe this is a little too out of line from my shitleague perspective but shouldn't you be trying to not lose no matter what? I mean its finals? I mean, unless you really want to play extra Thursday matches for some reason, shouldn't you be always trying to stay in UB?

Bowswer5
April 18th, 2013, 03:30 PM
If it really is that much of a problem for a people, it seems like somewhat of a temporary solution would be to have the UB team pick every map in the finals.

m4risa
April 18th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Maybe this is a little too out of line from my shitleague perspective but shouldn't you be trying to not lose no matter what? I mean its finals? I mean, unless you really want to play extra Thursday matches for some reason, shouldn't you be always trying to stay in UB?

Harbleu and Platinum participate in ESEA, a more prestigious league that offers cash prizes. ESEA LAN finals are this weekend. ESEA takes priority over UGC at this point, we can't even fit in a scrim for our match tonight.

Cold--
April 18th, 2013, 04:26 PM
Harbleu and Platinum participate in ESEA, a more prestigious league that offers cash prizes. ESEA LAN finals are this weekend. ESEA takes priority over UGC at this point, we can't even fit in a scrim for our match tonight.

It's possible that we scheduled this season to end a week earlier than is was going to, but our Finals ended getting extended to 4 weeks instead of 3 mid-way through the season for a better elimination format.

I'd be happy to chalk this up to misfortune and not negligence.

hein
April 18th, 2013, 04:42 PM
This actually happened last year, what m4risa is talking about. That's why this season was pushed back a week. Then we got a lot of feedback that a double elim would be good. Last season it was mts v ts. ts only had 2 that went to lan (me/ruwin) and mts had 3 or 4 (or more). So both teams had a bit of a struggle.

After this season is over I think we'll hold another vote to see if people really want to do double elim in the Fall. I think it has its ups and downs.

Also maybe next season, since we put it in the hands of the community to vote it up this season, we might just put it in writing the one way that everyone is saying this season. But again, this thread is being lead by about 6 people that are in High Plat or high Gold, then the admins. As others have said in the past: stickies get ignored after a day or two, other posts get lost within all the bullshit drama threads of the HL Discussions that arent actually HL discussions. So we've made the new "News and Updates" that hopefully we can make colorful or something to denote importance.

Feedback is definitely wanted and this thread has been great.

Cold--
April 18th, 2013, 04:54 PM
Hein, how far in advance does ESEA post their schedule? Do they post their LAN schedule in advance? Is there a way for us to schedule our season to end before LAN for the Fall season?

HEIN PLSSS

Phelix
April 18th, 2013, 06:01 PM
As one of the other upper-bracket teams going into finals, I think it's a bit dumb that it switches to single elimination for grand finals, but we also knew this going into playoffs, and I think it would be unfair to change now without significant buy-in from the teams in loser's brackets. However, we're in steel and not too worried about it in general.

Star Knight
April 18th, 2013, 09:47 PM
For the single elimination brackets, which team chooses map one/map two?

Royce
April 18th, 2013, 11:11 PM
Hein, how far in advance does ESEA post their schedule? Do they post their LAN schedule in advance? Is there a way for us to schedule our season to end before LAN for the Fall season?

HEIN PLSSS

They don't officially announce the lan date until playoffs. If you had some insider info you could know what they're targeting but for example this season there were ~3 different weekends in April that they had set up as potential lan dates. It sucks to have this conflict but I don't know if there's actually anything UGC can do.

jakeowaty
April 22nd, 2013, 07:33 PM
2nd place here, EU Silver. We won all games in Playoffs.

Last week on Swiftwater we got to play sandbagging team, that joined Silver with intention to roll it. It was the hardest match I've ever played. My team played. We won 2-1, barely.

Losing team got to play on Thursday again. Of course they won, what's the philosophy behind rolling a team? And we had to play them one more time, I say it again, the hardest team to play with in Silver.

We got to pick 2 maps. So what? I'd rather pick no maps, since we didn't mind any of these. We didn't manage to win the first, we won the second, but lost horribly on tiebreaker.

That's literally the only perk we got. Pick 2 maps. While they lost once with us already, and they got the second chance.

/cl_whinemode 1

Muuki
April 22nd, 2013, 08:21 PM
2nd place here, EU Silver. We won all games in Playoffs.

Last week on Swiftwater we got to play sandbagging team, that joined Silver with intention to roll it. It was the hardest match I've ever played. My team played. We won 2-1, barely.

Losing team got to play on Thursday again. Of course they won, what's the philosophy behind rolling a team? And we had to play them one more time, I say it again, the hardest team to play with in Silver.

We got to pick 2 maps. So what? I'd rather pick no maps, since we didn't mind any of these. We didn't manage to win the first, we won the second, but lost horribly on tiebreaker.

That's literally the only perk we got. Pick 2 maps. While they lost once with us already, and they got the second chance.

/cl_whinemode 1

You lost to a better team, thus the system is flawed?

jakeowaty
April 22nd, 2013, 08:51 PM
That they got the second chance, after we won with them on Swiftwater.
We don't have the second chance.

Doesn't feel fair, does it?

Muuki
April 23rd, 2013, 01:28 AM
That they got the second chance, after we won with them on Swiftwater.
We don't have the second chance.

Doesn't feel fair, does it?

You got the advantage of having 2 map picks which you can exploit to pick maps that are clearly in your advantage. If you still lose then I guess we can draw the conclusion that they were better under worse conditions and are deserving of the win.

Tomu
April 23rd, 2013, 08:22 AM
That they got the second chance, after we won with them on Swiftwater.
We don't have the second chance.

Doesn't feel fair, does it?

But you were the better team going into the finals, with 2 map choices.

It's not like they rolled through you.

The system isn't flawed.

At least you got 2nd. I couldn't even play the game for 3rd place for my team due to moving house and we probably would have won it as the game was lost in the heavy v heavy battle.

You should stop whining and be happy you got to play a very good finals. Just gotta remember, Bubz were the team who were predicted to win and you managed to take 2 maps off them in total this season.

Pinky
April 23rd, 2013, 09:29 AM
But you were the better team going into the finals, with 2 map choices.

It's not like they rolled through you.

The system isn't flawed.

At least you got 2nd. I couldn't even play the game for 3rd place for my team due to moving house and we probably would have won it as the game was lost in the heavy v heavy battle.

You should stop whining and be happy you got to play a very good finals. Just gotta remember, Bubz were the team who were predicted to win and you managed to take 2 maps off them in total this season.

I agree with tomu. Just chill Jake, it's only a game. It was a fun season and great finals and we got beat fair and square.

Also, sorry you didn't get to play Tomu, it was quite apparent from the scrim we played against your team on swiftwater that they were suffering from Tomu withdrawal.

Edge
April 23rd, 2013, 09:35 AM
You got the advantage of having 2 map picks which you can exploit to pick maps that are clearly in your advantage. If you still lose then I guess we can draw the conclusion that they were better under worse conditions and are deserving of the win.

At the same time, across the last 2 weeks of Team A and Team B competing against each other, both teams won 2 maps a piece however the team that lost first walks away with a title. I don't really see choice of an extra map to be much of an advantage for winning, nor a second chance match against a 3rd place team (especially in a division with a clear distance between the top 2 teams and the rest of the pack) to be much of a penalty.

Not much can be done this late, but would really like to go back to Single Eliminations next season, or have a full Double Eliminations playoffs.

Tomu
April 23rd, 2013, 09:41 AM
I agree with tomu. Just chill Jake, it's only a game. It was a fun season and great finals and we got beat fair and square.

Also, sorry you didn't get to play Tomu, it was quite apparent from the scrim we played against your team on swiftwater that they were suffering from Tomu withdrawal.

Just as we decided to put me back onto Heavy for playoffs too so we could put up a real fight. :(

I only wanted to get into the finals to pick haunt anyway. But apparently that wasn't allowed.

To be expected anyway, when a main caller leaves with a days preparation before an official on a map (that I'm not too much of a fan of anyway) its pretty hard to expect a win. They still put up a good fight against EV though with 2-1. I didn't even see that coming. Then again every match was me moaning about how long the season was :>

ThaZimmer
April 23rd, 2013, 11:30 AM
To be expected anyway, when a main caller leaves with a days preparation before an official on a map (that I'm not too much of a fan of anyway) its pretty hard to expect a win. They still put up a good fight against EV though with 2-1. I didn't even see that coming. Then again every match was me moaning about how long the season was :>

We had everything under perfect control the whole time Tomu ::

Tomu
April 23rd, 2013, 11:54 AM
We had everything under perfect control the whole time Tomu ::

Rematch for third place then? ;)

ThaZimmer
April 23rd, 2013, 12:50 PM
Rematch for third place then? ;)

I would love too, but you know. Season is done and everything, people wouldn't like this, so we just let it stand with us on 3rd :db:

Tomu
April 23rd, 2013, 01:11 PM
I would love too, but you know. Season is done and everything, people wouldn't like this, so we just let it stand with us on 3rd :db:

Only ones that should care are top two. And we weren't exactly going to contest with them. ;)

Don't weasel yourself out of this!

Pomegranate
April 26th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Are we getting any kind of news for HL title winners?

+Oil
April 26th, 2013, 05:23 PM
Are we getting any kind of news for HL title winners?

you can find it all in the title brackets here: http://www.ugcleague.com/home_tf2h.cfm

NA plat
1. ginyu
2. bpm
3. mts

NA gold
1. TG
2. lbp
3. tlb

NA silver/steel/iron, EU, Asian
who cares (jk, im too lazy to find them)

Cold--
April 26th, 2013, 05:28 PM
Are we getting any kind of news for HL title winners?

My butler forgot to leave off the pickles on my lunch yesterday so I "accidentally" forgot to give him an updated map of where I keep mines planted in the courtyard. He was supposed to remind me today to put some thought into some news posts. I suppose I can hire someone to do that for me this weekend.

These news posts aren't cheap, you know. Valve pays me $150,000 per UGC HL post. If Gabe doesn't sign those checks, I don't type a single word. Come to think of it I don't really "type" anything at all. I simply punch a keyboard and rub a mouse over my chest hair and phrases of an informative poet come out. My body is a news-posting genius.

*sigh*

I suppose I could write up something soon. It depends on how "motivated" I feel. If someone would bring me some lunch, that would help.

"Roberto! Bring me a sandwich. Roast beef. Cheddar. Now."

*BOOM!*

Make sure to leave off the pickles...

Giraffe
April 26th, 2013, 06:23 PM
My butler forgot to leave off the pickles on my lunch yesterday so I "accidentally" forgot to give him an updated map of where I keep mines planted in the courtyard. He was supposed to remind me today to put some thought into some news posts. I suppose I can hire someone to do that for me this weekend.

These news posts aren't cheap, you know. Valve pays me $150,000 per UGC HL post. If Gabe doesn't sign those checks, I don't type a single word. Come to think of it I don't really "type" anything at all. I simply punch a keyboard and rub a mouse over my chest hair and phrases of an informative poet come out. My body is a news-posting genius.

*sigh*

I suppose I could write up something soon. It depends on how "motivated" I feel. If someone would bring me some lunch, that would help.

"Roberto! Bring me a sandwich. Roast beef. Cheddar. Now."

*BOOM!*

Make sure to leave off the pickles...

Couldnt you have spent half the time you did to write that post about a butler just to make a quick congratulations post with a list of the winners. Quick informative posts would prove a lot more helpful so players can get the information they want without having to read your latest short story entree. Way more information would be available to players if one post didnt take up half the page. Your posts are fun and can be creative, and its great that you put in the time and effort but admins are always complaining about lack of community involvement, why not have the front page with actual announcements to get the community involved in more things like map votes, big matches being casted, provide the links to the streams/vods or the thread with all that info, etc.

Tldr; make announcements more informative and productive pls

tranche
April 26th, 2013, 06:26 PM
tldr; what's a sense of humor?

Cold--
April 26th, 2013, 06:58 PM
Cold, you're not allowed to have fun. Your time has a sole purpose of meeting or exceeding my expectations. I have to go now and thrust my forehead against a wooden plank for a duration of 20-30 minutes. I expect a news post to be up when I get back.

Lollery. The post hinted that I would try to get to it this weekend. I can't just "do" as simply as you put it. I have to talk to the senior admins, like RedRum or Forn, to get some information together and talk about what they want me to release, etc, etc. Then I like to sit down with a beer or twenty and think up of something to write before I pass out in my chair (sometimes I wait until I get home to start drinking).

Meh... I dunno.

Tell you what: How about you write us a news post and I'll throw it up on the HL page later tonight. I could use a break. All that "typing just for fun because I'm in a good mood" really burned me out. *epic wipe of brow sweat!* I think I'll go on a road trip tomorrow. You know, get out and see the countryside. Maybe eat some fancy cheese. :]

Cheers, fökas.

Pomegranate
April 26th, 2013, 08:08 PM
you can find it all in the title brackets here: http://www.ugcleague.com/home_tf2h.cfm


Of course you can look at the brackets and see who won, but that's pretty lackluster, isn't it? :rolleyes:
6s already has some basic info, so hopefully some gruyere and camembert can get cold in the mood.