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View Full Version : HL S15 Starts next week!



snowblindfrog
January 19th, 2015, 10:02 PM
http://ugcleague.com/files/images/ugcfamily.png

Schedules for Week 1 will be posted by Thursday January 22nd at the latest. Week 1 matches will take place on Monday January 26th!

Important notes to team leaders:
1.) If your team is not yet placed into a skill division please submit a division change request from your leader panel. Teams may ready up at any point, so if you miss week 1 do not worry. You can still continue to build up your roster and play the next week.

2.) The season map list has been posted here (http://www.ugcleague.com/maplist_tf2h.cfm).

3.) The whitelist has been updated today at 8:53PM EST to include a ban for the Loch N Load and some additional fixes for a few cosmetic items that were named incorrectly and to remove a bug with a "" in one line. Please download the newest whitelist, config files and this season's custom maps at the following page (http://www.ugcleague.com/files_tf2h.cfm).

4.) One important rule change has been implemented regarding the use of exploits. Please continue reading: "9.2 Map, weapons and* game engine exploits - *The intentional use of exploits of map flaws, weapons and game engine bugs are* not allowed. Example #1: Engineer buildings may not be placed in areas in which the enemy team cannot destroy by direct fire. This includes but is not limited to maps that allow* you to build a teleporter inside the spawn room. Example #2: Players may not shoot through solid surfaces or doors that are intended to be closed. This includes but is not limited to the A door on cp_steel." As always you can find out rules here (http://www.ugcleague.com/rules_tf2h.cfm).

5.) The results of the UGC map and weapon poll that just wrapped up can be viewed here (http://polls.playcomp.tf/results/ugc-hl-season15).

GOOD LUCK TO ALL TEAMS PLAYING IN SEASON 15!
-Snowblindfrog
UGC HL Head Admin

Spades Slick
January 20th, 2015, 12:11 AM
Example #1: Engineer buildings may not be placed in areas in which the enemy team cannot destroy by direct fire. This includes but is not limited to maps that allow* you to build a teleporter inside the spawn room.
So if I build a teleporter in cp_steel spawn (where it's still possible to get explosive spam inside and break buildings), and not immediately outside the shutter doors leading to A and B, I'm an exploiter?

Lafaa123
January 20th, 2015, 12:18 AM
So if I build a teleporter in cp_steel spawn (where it's still possible to get explosive spam inside and break buildings), and not immediately outside the shutter doors leading to A and B, I'm an exploiter?

I would imagine anywhere that a spy can not place a sapper would not be allowed

Zza
January 20th, 2015, 01:33 AM
This may be dumb but I'm just trying to completely understand:

Building a level 3 sentry is no longer allowed during setup time of Steel (on offense)? Nor is using the resup and the "spawn" area to quickly build a building during the round?

If this is the case, I'd really like to know the reasoning behind calling this an "exploit" (as it says directly in the rule above). I'm almost certain that is the intended purpose of that area. Otherwise it would be a no build zone...

Digresser
January 20th, 2015, 02:17 AM
Have to agree. Both examples could use with some better explanation.

For the first example, on Steel and Gravel Pit BLU, what is considered Spawn? The buildings you respawn in or also the areas in front of them where the enemies can't walk? Personally, I hope that you can build in those areas in front of Spawn, but if not please specify that nothing can be built there. It would not be funl if buildings were only allowed within "direct fire" range because that is just begging for debate. Keep in mind that a blanket ban would mean that Engineers could no longer build Sentries to guard one door, etc.

As for the door on Steel A, you should really clarify that this is only when the door is closed. Once the point is capped and the door begins opening, then you really ought to allow shooting through them, otherwise people will dispute about how much the door is opened or that it wasn't opened all the way, etc.

Those things aside, really looking forward to this season!

ninjaMooCow
January 20th, 2015, 08:45 AM
This may be dumb but I'm just trying to completely understand:

Building a level 3 sentry is no longer allowed during setup time of Steel (on offense)? Nor is using the resup and the "spawn" area to quickly build a building during the round?


I am interested in this as well.

TenaciousToaster
January 20th, 2015, 10:27 AM
Please elaborate on the buildings rule. How are you defining "direct fire"? Does direct fire mean if you can sap it it's fine? Does direct fire mean that if splash damage can destroy it but not hit scan it's fine? If you can destroy one of the teleporters but not the other is that fine? Does this mean that on cp_steel you would have to build a teleporter outside of the area you are stuck in during setup on offense? or can it just not be in the "spawn"? (on that note "spawn" hasn't really been defined well IIRC #ripinpaulwalkerez$)

Captainicy
January 20th, 2015, 10:41 AM
I would definitely hope that buildings don't have to be sappable for this "direct fire" rule. Take that spot up on the roof on Swiftwater last. Spies can't sap it (can't get high enough, I don't think) but it can definitely be killed with "direct fire" from rockets/stickies etc. Same with the spot up top on Badwater 1st (hill, ontop of the wooden... things) can easily be spammed out but can't be sapped.

brooky12
January 20th, 2015, 12:15 PM
Can you still place a dispenser on that spot on Upward that blocks Spies from getting to where the Sentry is?

ThePyroSquirrel
January 20th, 2015, 01:55 PM
Guys, they clarified the building thing on the actual rules page. I still have an issue with this part of the exploits section of the rules:


9.2a. Texture flaws - *Players are not allowed to use any map texture flaw to their advantage, including but not limited to; player clipping off map, placing sentry guns or other constructs off map, placing explosives of any kind in texture flaws

What on Earth is a "texture flaw"? Does it mean the ten million spots on upward first that you can put invisible sticky traps in?

On a broader note, it would be impossible to completely clarify the rules on exploits simply because TF2 has a huge variety of bugs and quirks. In addition to this, what constitutes a map exploit is vague at best besides the clause about buildings (i.e. is using an obscure prop to hide on top of for as a soldier a "map flaw"?)

I'm still a proponent of having a sort of master exploits list with a "including but not limited to" clause for clarity's sake. A list wouldn't solve all the problems, but if a person were to look something up on a list then there is no ambiguity on whether or not that exploit is banned. If said hypothetical exploit is not there, then they would still have to ask an admin which is already the case. Having such a list would do nothing but save the admins time and everyone else a bit of confusion.

Mamboulay
January 20th, 2015, 02:20 PM
So if I build a teleporter in cp_steel spawn (where it's still possible to get explosive spam inside and break buildings), and not immediately outside the shutter doors leading to A and B, I'm an exploiter?


Building a level 3 sentry is no longer allowed during setup time of Steel (on offense)? Nor is using the resup and the "spawn" area to quickly build a building during the round?

Spawn is defined as the room in which you spawn. The areas on cp_steel and cp_gravelpit in which you are used to build is the team base and that is allowed, snow changed the wording to clarify it.


As for the door on Steel A, you should really clarify that this is only when the door is closed. Once the point is capped and the door begins opening, then you really ought to allow shooting through them, otherwise people will dispute about how much the door is opened or that it wasn't opened all the way, etc.

The wording currently says intended to be closed, which means that as soon as the point is capped/the doors begin to open, the doors are no longer intended to be closed. It's the same for gate doors during setup time, there have been angles under which the pyro can light the enemy on fire, but as soon as setup time is over, gates immediately open. In the case of cp_steel, the doors are just slow to open.


Please elaborate on the buildings rule. How are you defining "direct fire"? Does direct fire mean if you can sap it it's fine? Does direct fire mean that if splash damage can destroy it but not hit scan it's fine? If you can destroy one of the teleporters but not the other is that fine? Does this mean that on cp_steel you would have to build a teleporter outside of the area you are stuck in during setup on offense? or can it just not be in the "spawn"? (on that note "spawn" hasn't really been defined well IIRC #ripinpaulwalkerez$)

Direct fire means that you can destroy the buildings without interference from map glitches. An example that comes to mind is Ashville, where you can build a teleporter entrance in your spawn area. I'm not sure if you are referring to any case in particular besides cp_steel, in which case I hope the reworded examples in Rule 9.2 are more clear.


Can you still place a dispenser on that spot on Upward that blocks Spies from getting to where the Sentry is?

Yes, something that is annoying is not considered a map glitch. The same goes for Swiftwater last for example, that very annoying spot above last point on which the engie can put his sentry is not a map glitch. Those buildings can be destroyed.

--------------

We will post a list of known glitches on the Forums soon (which players will be welcome to contribute to) and eventually a compilation on the Website. You will also be reminded in the weekly news posts for the current map week.

Even after years of play, there are still unreported weapon & map glitches in every game and we appreciate your cooperation & understanding as we implement this new Rule.

Dimento
January 20th, 2015, 02:26 PM
Yes, something that is annoying is not considered a map glitch. The same goes for Swiftwater last for example, that very annoying spot above last point on which the engie can put his sentry is not a map glitch. Those buildings can be destroyed.

Why is a gun spot that a spy cannot physically sap allowed?

Mamboulay
January 20th, 2015, 02:30 PM
Why is a gun spot that a spy cannot physically sap allowed?

Legit question. Would you consider the roof on Gravelpit B point to be a map exploit/glitch or would you consider sentry jumping as a glitch? The same would go for Badwater last for example, that little house before getting into map room, would that be a glitch?

Dr. Alto H. Clef
January 20th, 2015, 03:05 PM
Are week 1 matches going off of team elo?


Why is a gun spot that a spy cannot physically sap allowed?

But the spy can physically sap it. Just because the spy can't easily reach it does not mean it is physically impossible to sap. An engineer could use a map exploit to fall outside the map and put up a gun, but if the spy could do the same it'd still be possible to sap, although it'd be illegal in ugc. Gravelpit B, Badwater last roof, the awnings over the windows on swiftwater last, all of those guns can be sapped. Maybe not easily or normally, but they can be. If you baited a soldier into firing a rocket at you, you could surf up and sap it. Snipers can ride explosives to decks they normally couldn't reach to gain new sightlines. It's not illegal to snipe a medic from rock over viaduct cliff if a sniper is able to surf up there.

What mambo (and the rule) is referring to is a sentry gun which was immune to damage because of some sort of map exploit. Somewhere a spy would need to noclip to sap, or somewhere that requires going outside of the map to damage.

Dimento
January 20th, 2015, 03:12 PM
Legit question. Would you consider the roof on Gravelpit B point to be a map exploit/glitch or would you consider sentry jumping as a glitch? The same would go for Badwater last for example, that little house before getting into map room, would that be a glitch?

I just think in competitive the sentry gun should be always in a spot where the spy can sap the sentry gun, it's my opinion, but maybe it can be discussed next season. Just know I said nothing about it being an exploit or glitch, I just wanted to bring up the idea that a gun should be able to be sapped. I mean the reason badwater third is such a broken point is because in most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the spy to sap the gun with the dispenser blocking the only way up. Hopefully that kind of answers your question.

and hopefully we will never play gpit again :)

Neon Charmander
January 20th, 2015, 04:13 PM
Can someone clarify if sticky traps in rocks on upward or in the wood piece on granary are illegal

Lafaa123
January 20th, 2015, 04:14 PM
I just think in competitive the sentry gun should be always in a spot where the spy can sap the sentry gun, it's my opinion, but maybe it can be discussed next season. Just know I said nothing about it being an exploit or glitch, I just wanted to bring up the idea that a gun should be able to be sapped. I mean the reason badwater third is such a broken point is because in most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the spy to sap the gun with the dispenser blocking the only way up. Hopefully that kind of answers your question.

and hopefully we will never play gpit again :)

I'm with dimentio on this one, it's pretty aggravating when the only way up to a sentry is blocked or impossible to get to, and basically takes the fun out of playing a map. Even more so when you're getting blamed for not being able to position yourself for a pick when your team wants to push

Mamboulay
January 20th, 2015, 04:33 PM
Can someone clarify if sticky traps in rocks on upward or in the wood piece on granary are illegal

We'll discuss the implications of Rule 9.2.a tonight and we'll get back to you soon.

snowblindfrog
January 21st, 2015, 12:18 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone! As we've said before, the rules are a living document and are updated frequently with your input.

The exploit rule has been updated to say:

9.2 Map, weapons and* game engine exploits - *The intentional use of exploits of map flaws, weapons and game engine bugs are* not allowed. *Use of exploits in a match can result in either the round being replayed or the offending team may lose the round.*

Example #1: Engineer buildings may not be placed in areas in which the opposing team is unable to destroy them. This includes but is not limited to maps that allow* you to build a teleporter inside the spawn room itself (such as on Ashville). Exception: Some maps, like cp_steel and cp_gravelpit, have a protected area outside of the spawn room which is still behind gates (this area is defined as your team's base). You are allowed *to build engie buildings in your base (as long as it's not in your actual spawn room).**
Example #2: Players may not shoot through solid surfaces or doors that are intended to be closed. This includes but is not limited to the A door on cp_steel.
Example #3: Storing krit punches on the engineer's gunslinger is not allowed.
Example #4: Engies are not permitted to build a teleporter in the small closed off room at Red's last CP on pl_upward.

And 9.2.a (the texture flaw rule) has been removed. Specifically it was removed because we have decided not to ban the use of hiding stickies in things like rocks. Other texture flaws though, such as that let you see through walls, would be covered in the 9.2 rule already.

Also another rule tweak that I wanted to mention is a new way to handle sudden death in 5CP. This new rule is ONLY to be used if the teams are still tied after the first overtime round. There is no special config for this OT round. Just use the normal 5CP config and play.


1.3.b. 5 CP Command Point maps *....
....If neither team manages to capture all points during the OT round, a special second OT round is to be played. In this round the first team to cap mid will win the match.

Also in 1.1 spawn vs base was defined

1.1. Class Limits - Teams are limited to one of each class. Switching classes during the game is allowed, therefore class limits apply to players that leave the spawn room or engage in play in any way. Spawn room is defined as the actual room that the players spawn in. Some maps, such as cp_steel (blue side) have an additional area outside of the spawn room that is protected by gates. This area is defined as your team's base.* Exiting the spawn room and entering into your team's base with more than 1 of any class is prohibited.

Darth Pops
January 21st, 2015, 12:20 AM
I just think in competitive the sentry gun should be always in a spot where the spy can sap the sentry gun, it's my opinion, but maybe it can be discussed next season. Just know I said nothing about it being an exploit or glitch, I just wanted to bring up the idea that a gun should be able to be sapped. I mean the reason badwater third is such a broken point is because in most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the spy to sap the gun with the dispenser blocking the only way up. Hopefully that kind of answers your question.

and hopefully we will never play gpit again


I'm with dimentio on this one, it's pretty aggravating when the only way up to a sentry is blocked or impossible to get to, and basically takes the fun out of playing a map. Even more so when you're getting blamed for not being able to position yourself for a pick when your team wants to push

Why does the spy have to be the only metric on where my gun can go? Just because spy can't get to it on Badwater 3rd or Swiftwater last or Upward last, doesn't mean I should be punished for sentry jumping my gun to a place spy can't get to. Other classes are capable of killing it, and teams need to learn to work around it.

Lafaa123
January 21st, 2015, 01:47 AM
Why does the spy have to be the only metric on where my gun can go? Just because spy can't get to it on Badwater 3rd or Swiftwater last or Upward last, doesn't mean I should be punished for sentry jumping my gun to a place spy can't get to. Other classes are capable of killing it, and teams need to learn to work around it.

Because the spy is a very important class when it comes to supporting the team when they push. I don't think sentry jumping is as bad as straight up blocking you out, though. When you block off an area you have the ability to make the entire combo, sniper, AND nest be completely invulnerable to a spy, which is really fucking stupid. The ONLY way to get around this is by killing the sentry, and by the time you place a sapper/shoot it down, everyone will be looking for you, including the pyro that's probably up patrolling the patio of autism that's set up.

Dr. Alto H. Clef
January 21st, 2015, 02:04 AM
I don't think using a dispenser to block off areas and sentry jumping is bad as a concept, but specifically on badwater I think it's an issue.

Lafaa123
January 21st, 2015, 02:11 AM
I don't think using a dispenser to block off areas and sentry jumping is bad as a concept, but specifically on badwater I think it's an issue.

I think it's worse on upward last, that sentry spot is hard enough to get to kill as it is, being able to pent up your combo/sniper in there,(which are already pretty solid positions) completely immune to spies, and come down only when you need to pop is just rediculous

Digresser
January 21st, 2015, 06:58 AM
*rule updates*

All of those updates and clarifications make a lot of sense. Thank you for listening to our feedback.

SAAM!
January 21st, 2015, 12:47 PM
woops

/10mislicks

Sylon[DMS]
January 21st, 2015, 07:10 PM
I think it's worse on upward last, that sentry spot is hard enough to get to kill as it is, being able to pent up your combo/sniper in there,(which are already pretty solid positions) completely immune to spies, and come down only when you need to pop is just rediculous

Agreed, why are we allowing the engineer to build a dispenser where the only purpose is to lock off the area to the Spy (With very little drawback to the engineer as well) Badwater 3rd/Last stairs and Upward Last stairs should not be allowed to be blocked.

Spades Slick
January 21st, 2015, 07:29 PM
I don't understand why you're all bitching about this, the easiest way to counter a dispenser is to sap it as soon as an uber distraction is out, the Engineer is not gonna go unsap his dispenser while his gun is being shot at by like 4 people (which should be the right amount of people if you want to take it out).
If would be an issue if the Engineer could keep his gun up absolutely no problem uber after uber with the Dispenser blocking spies, but as you may have noticed, it goes down with an excellent uber and good coordination, regardless if it's in the way.
This claim is just as dumb as saying Soldiers and Demo shouldn't be allowed to explosive jump because they can do things other classes can't and it gives them an advantage.

Sylon[DMS]
January 21st, 2015, 07:46 PM
That doesn't make any sense- so we need to coordinate a sap on the dispenser with an uber so the Spy can gain access to the Sentry?

The sentry can go down without the Spies involvement, this is true- but it completely eliminates the Spy element from it. The other benefit to having the dispenser there is to also be automatically alerted to the Spies presence via sap or dmg taken.

Mime
January 21st, 2015, 08:22 PM
;184830']That doesn't make any sense- so we need to coordinate a sap on the dispenser with an uber so the Spy can gain access to the Sentry?

The sentry can go down without the Spies involvement, this is true- but it completely eliminates the Spy element from it. The other benefit to having the dispenser there is to also be automatically alerted to the Spies presence via sap or dmg taken.

Just in case you weren't aware, classes other than Spy CAN destroy the dispenser, a shocking revelation, isn't it?
By this same idea, the Razorback, Vaccinator, and Fists of Steel should also be banned because they make killing a target a little more difficult because they require a little bit of coordination. I'm sorry if you feel that this takes away from playing Spy, but it just means you need to adjust your strategy as a team rather than go on solo missions. Welcome to highlander*.
*I hate to sound rude, but this argument is just plain silly from my perspective.

Stelako
January 21st, 2015, 08:27 PM
Engie mains unite!

Sylon[DMS]
January 21st, 2015, 08:44 PM
Possible Engie Main Words

I was actually going to type more but you just compared Weapons to a dispenser placement on the map.

Penguin
January 21st, 2015, 08:55 PM
Dispenser blocks that completely wall off an entire area of the map to spies, so that the only way they can get through there is to destroy the dispenser, are really dumb and it's no coincidence that the two most notable points where you can do this (badwater 3rd and upward last) are incredibly hard to push points and really strong sentry spots.

The trouble with banning dispenser blocks is that there are situations where you can block a doorway with a dispenser, but it can still be crouch-jumped over, or that doorway is not the only way into an area so the spy is still free to choose between taking an alt route and destroying the dispenser, rather than destroying the dispenser being the only option. There's also the issue of engineers potentially blocking areas with buildings by accident or unintentionally, say by putting a minisentry at the top of a narrow staircase. If UGC were to enact a rule that bans any sort of dispenser blocking, it should deal only with specific dispenser locations on certain maps that have problems, probably with screenshots for clarity. The reason why this is a problem on any point is just that the dispenser block further complicates and reduces options for blu on a point that is already very difficult to push even were the dispenser block not being used, and with the dispenser being in a very sheltered location that makes it difficult for the spy's teammates to destroy the dispenser for him, not anything to do with dispenser blocks being inherently unfair or bad. They could also be fixed by updating these maps to widen or nobuild the problem areas.

Don't be dumb about this being unfair just because you main engie and want to be able to defend some points without having to remain spy aware. You sound like all the sniper mains who cry whenever anybody raises the possibility of a razorback ban because of how broken the weapon is on a really great sniper who's holding with their combo at 185 hp. If you really have issues, before the dispenser blocks on badwater and upward became widely known it was common practice for some teams to put their pyro up there with the engie just to keep the spy from being able to get in on the gun, and you can still choose to defend that way.

Sylon[DMS]
January 21st, 2015, 09:18 PM
Thanks for bringing in an unbiased opinion. 100% if this was banned it would be clearly explained what map and where, similar to the rule of attacking through the door on Steel.

Hng
January 21st, 2015, 09:28 PM
ps there's a way to get to the sentry on badwater at third as a spy, even if there's a dispenser blocking the stairwell.

on upward last, the dispenser blocking the stairwell can be spammed by rockets and destroyed. co-ordinate with your soldier and ask him to destroy it for you if you're having difficulties reaching the sentry.

there is nothing wrong with dispensers blocking access to sentries so that spies can't reach them.. the fact anybody would think that isn't fair / is an issue is beyond me.. find ways to overcome these obstacles.

Enderp
January 21st, 2015, 09:39 PM
ps there's a way to get to the sentry on badwater at third as a spy, even if there's a dispenser blocking the stairwell.

on upward last, the dispenser blocking the stairwell can be spammed by rockets and destroyed. co-ordinate with your soldier and ask him to destroy it for you if you're having difficulties reaching the sentry.

there is nothing wrong with dispensers blocking access to sentries so that spies can't reach them.. the fact anybody would think that isn't fair / is an issue is beyond me.. find ways to overcome these obstacles.

I agree 100%.

Dimento
January 21st, 2015, 09:52 PM
ps there's a way to get to the sentry on badwater at third as a spy, even if there's a dispenser blocking the stairwell.

on upward last, the dispenser blocking the stairwell can be spammed by rockets and destroyed. co-ordinate with your soldier and ask him to destroy it for you if you're having difficulties reaching the sentry.

Upward last dispenser isn't a big deal yes (I personally never said it was), and the way up into the badwater third can easily be countered by anyone aware of the way up (you can see whip lines even though the spy is invisible, [Im also assuming this is what you're thinking, if you have some super secret way up please tell me, i'm bad at spy]). I guess when I said sentry guns should be in a spot they can be sapped I didn't really mean it. I just don't like badwater third. Honestly the most reliable way to sap third is to just go there preemptively and hope the pyro doesn't clear the area (like they should).

mittenduck
January 21st, 2015, 10:20 PM
I would imagine anywhere that a spy can not place a sapper would not be allowed
would this spot be illegal then? http://puu.sh/eIzlD/eb51933fe5.jpg

Lafaa123
January 21st, 2015, 10:35 PM
would this spot be illegal then? http://puu.sh/eIzlD/eb51933fe5.jpg

No thats fine, my statement was incorrect.

Sylon[DMS]
January 21st, 2015, 10:40 PM
find ways to overcome these obstacles.

Those ways have been found and are extremely obvious (Except the Badwater 3rd, that's creative), it still doesn't refute this to me:


Don't be dumb about this being unfair just because you main engie and want to be able to defend some points without having to remain spy aware.

Dr. Alto H. Clef
January 21st, 2015, 10:41 PM
;184830']but it completely eliminates the Spy element from it

http://puu.sh/eQSI5/3ac2a9bae2.jpg

Admiral_Zagron
January 21st, 2015, 11:17 PM
The upward one isn't a big deal, if a spy wants to, the engie is far away enough to sap the dispenser and shoot it down without getting seen since that stairwell isn't a common hold spot for anyone but sniper and engie. The badwater one is a problem because there is no way for a spy to destroy it without getting himself killed as well. We aren't playing badwater this season (thank god) so this issue isn't one that needs to be decided on now, but I would really like to see at least the badwater one banned later.

Lafaa123
January 21st, 2015, 11:22 PM
Just in case you weren't aware, classes other than Spy CAN destroy the dispenser, a shocking revelation, isn't it?
By this same idea, the Razorback, Vaccinator, and Fists of Steel should also be banned because they make killing a target a little more difficult because they require a little bit of coordination. I'm sorry if you feel that this takes away from playing Spy, but it just means you need to adjust your strategy as a team rather than go on solo missions. Welcome to highlander*.
*I hate to sound rude, but this argument is just plain silly from my perspective.

You're comparing apples to oranges here, you have to sacrifice using a certain weapon to run those weapons, the dispenser spots dont sacrifice anything except positioning, which itself isnt that bad (at least on badwater third). Those weapons also dont rely on COMPLETELY shutting down another class, it's still possible to kill them by other means. The spots that block access to doorways completely nullify the spies effectiveness to anybody in the area he cant get to, not just the engie and sentry.

It's also quite unreasonable to expect me to get my soldier to bomb into a combo and SENTRY just to kill a dispenser in a stupid spot, he'll just get himself killed, not to mention the fact that it would only take the engie like 5 seconds to set up a new one and block me out again.


The upward one isn't a big deal, if a spy wants to, the engie is far away enough to sap the dispenser and shoot it down without getting seen since that stairwell isn't a common hold spot for anyone but sniper and engie. The badwater one is a problem because there is no way for a spy to destroy it without getting himself killed as well. We aren't playing badwater this season (thank god) so this issue isn't one that needs to be decided on now, but I would really like to see at least the badwater one banned later.

Yeah but you can just your ask pyro to kill me since theres only one place i can be without getting killed by the sentry undisguised. It's way to easy to get yourself killed, and if you do end up killing the dispenser posthumously, he'll just reset it

Xenith
January 21st, 2015, 11:24 PM
The upward one isn't a big deal, if a spy wants to, the engie is far away enough to sap the dispenser and shoot it down without getting seen since that stairwell isn't a common hold spot for anyone but sniper and engie. The badwater one is a problem because there is no way for a spy to destroy it without getting himself killed as well. We aren't playing badwater this season (thank god) so this issue isn't one that needs to be decided on now, but I would really like to see at least the badwater one banned later.


Or why not just remake it and make that staircase bigger, or give it an alternate route?

Heisen
January 22nd, 2015, 12:08 AM
ps there's a way to get to the sentry on badwater at third as a spy, even if there's a dispenser blocking the stairwell.

on upward last, the dispenser blocking the stairwell can be spammed by rockets and destroyed. co-ordinate with your soldier and ask him to destroy it for you if you're having difficulties reaching the sentry.

there is nothing wrong with dispensers blocking access to sentries so that spies can't reach them.. the fact anybody would think that isn't fair / is an issue is beyond me.. find ways to overcome these obstacles.

holy shit thank you

it's not like spy's only ability is to run at engineers with a sapper and hope that it works. if there's a dispenser blocking a pathway, use one of the ways of getting rid of it mentioned previously in this thread or just go do something else. if the entire team is truly playing in one spot with the engi and then gun and there's literally nothing you can do that just means your team has a shitload of room to take for free. get a sniper to peek of uber in, it's really not that big a deal.

plus if this became a rule where do you draw the line? are specific spots banned because of the stalemates they cause or the entire blocking mechanic in general? i might be stupid or missing something but this doesn't seem like it would be easy or maybe even possible to implement as a rule. would be hell for the admins to review all the demos with reported spot usage as well.

Penguin
January 22nd, 2015, 12:12 AM
ps there's a way to get to the sentry on badwater at third as a spy, even if there's a dispenser blocking the stairwell.

on upward last, the dispenser blocking the stairwell can be spammed by rockets and destroyed. co-ordinate with your soldier and ask him to destroy it for you if you're having difficulties reaching the sentry.

there is nothing wrong with dispensers blocking access to sentries so that spies can't reach them.. the fact anybody would think that isn't fair / is an issue is beyond me.. find ways to overcome these obstacles.

Technically you could also run behind and C&D camp these spots from the second the round starts, or surf a rocket or something up there. You can also take a teleporter if the engineer is dumb or me.

Sorry but I do think it's pretty ridiculous that you would need to have 2 players on your team coordinate in order to kill a dispenser, before you can even get a chance at trying to kill the sentry/engineer that is your actual target. It's not like it's difficult for a spy to destroy a dispenser in the first place, but it does obviously reveal your location, which means if you stick around after sapping/shooting the dispenser you're going to get killed, and if you go wait somewhere and hide it's easy for the engineer to go and put the dispenser back up before you can get in. Plus this does a bunch to further fuck up the timing you need to coordinate a sap with spam on the gun and/or an uber.

The issue isn't so much that it's a gun spot that's hard for the spy to deal with; it's that it's a gun spot that's hard for anything to deal with, on points that are very strong holds, and using the dispenser block essentially makes the spy a non-factor in anything to do with taking out the sentry. Particularly given that sappers are the hardest counter to wrangler/rescue ranger short of killing the engineer (something else the spy can be very good at), and that the threat of being backstabbed because you know the spy is up, can get to you, and is probably waiting for a distraction is really the only deterrent to being 100% focused on wrangling. If these points weren't such strong holds, if these sentry spots weren't so good, if the wrangler didn't exist, there wouldn't even be a problem in the first place.


plus if this became a rule where do you draw the line? are specific spots banned because of the stalemates they cause or the entire blocking mechanic in general? i might be stupid or missing something but this doesn't seem like it would be easy or maybe even possible to implement as a rule. would be hell for the admins to review all the demos with reported spot usage as well.

Specific spots where it is an issue. You are, of course, correct that the difficulty in implementing/enforcing such a rule is one of the main reasons to just let things stand as they are.

But also that it's an issue that could be 100% fixed by using pro versions of the map that widen or nobuild the staircases.

Zza
January 22nd, 2015, 12:22 AM
You guys are literally asking UGC to ban something that's part of vanilla TF2... Map flaw =/= exploit. Your opinion of something being "unfair" is not a reason to make something illegal. You guys are asking this league to become a joke. Honestly.

If anything, petition the maps not the sentry spots.

Neon Charmander
January 22nd, 2015, 12:33 AM
engie mains vs scout mains

smobo
January 22nd, 2015, 12:47 AM
There's only one dispenser spot in this season that is this bad (upward last) that I know of, and I think it's pretty easy for a soldier to spam it from main. We have a thread up for a badwater_pro, and ideally someone would create a version that addresses that spot, and a rule change would never be necessary.

Digresser
January 22nd, 2015, 12:48 AM
plus if this became a rule where do you draw the line?

Exactly. Including such things in the rules is just opening a can of worms. What's more, it's very very sloppy. It would be an admittance that the map is considered flawed and yet is still expected to be played. If there is truly a problem with a map then the map should be changed; it should never be on the players to accommodate the map.

The Dispenser blocks on Badwater 3rd and Upward last are unusual, but they're utterly bypassable with a bit of teamwork and coordination. Teams usually end up pushing past them. If pro versions of these maps are designed to remove these blocks I'm sure people will be pretty accepting of it, but, in the meantime, the current versions have worked for many seasons and will undoubtedly continue to do so without special building rules.

Honestly, if a single Dispenser is stopping your team then you probably need have a team-bonding/training montage to Eye of the Tiger or something.

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 12:51 AM
You guys are literally asking UGC to ban something that's part of vanilla TF2... Map flaw =/= exploit. Your opinion of something being "unfair" is not a reason to make something illegal. You guys are asking this league to become a joke. Honestly.

If anything, petition the maps not the sentry spots.

That's a bullshit excuse, that's like saying weapon bans to against vanilla tf2, not to mention the fact we LITERALLY JUST BANNED MAP FLAW EXPLOITS:

9.2 Map, weapons and* game engine exploits - *The intentional use of exploits of MAP FLAWS , weapons and game engine bugs are* not allowed. *Use of exploits in a match can result in either the round being replayed or the offending team may lose the round.*

Example #1: Engineer buildings may not be placed in areas in which the opposing team is unable to destroy them. This includes but is not limited to maps that allow* you to build a teleporter inside the spawn room itself (such as on Ashville). Exception: Some maps, like cp_steel and cp_gravelpit, have a protected area outside of the spawn room which is still behind gates (this area is defined as your team's base). You are allowed *to build engie buildings in your base (as long as it's not in your actual spawn room).**
Example #2: Players may not shoot through solid surfaces or doors that are intended to be closed. This includes but is not limited to the A door on cp_steel.
Example #3: Storing krit punches on the engineer's gunslinger is not allowed.
Example #4: Engies are not permitted to build a teleporter in the small closed off room at Red's last CP on pl_upward"

I GUESS THE LEAGUE IS A JOKE NOW BOYS, PACK IT UP, SHOWS OVER

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 12:56 AM
Exactly. Including such things in the rules is just opening a can of worms. What's more, it's very very sloppy. It would be an admittance that the map is considered flawed and yet is still expected to be played. If there is truly a problem with a map then the map should be changed; it should never be on the players to accommodate the map.


If we say that then why dont we have pro versions that fix the map flaws that were JUST banned? We're accommodating the map that way.

I won't address your other point because penguin and I already explained how forcing another player to do something to make your class work is stupid

ProfKnots
January 22nd, 2015, 01:05 AM
If we say that then why dont we have pro versions that fix the map flaws that were JUST banned? We're accommodating the map that way.

I won't address your other point because penguin and I already explained how forcing another player to do something to make your class work is stupid

I don't play competitive Spy so I'm not sure what you guys do during a lot of non-push time, but it seems to me that, as Heisen stated earlier, if the Engy has blocked themselves away to the point where you can't sap the gun without expending a ton of effort, why not go do other Spy stuff? Granted, the Pyro will generally be able to focus on the combo a lot more since they don't have to worry about the Spy getting the gun nearly as much. But isn't it possible to just go for a Med/Sniper/anyone-but-the-Engy pick? Or even just comm? That, in and of itself, is super helpful. Having a constant update as to where players are, if they've moved, what their uber % is, Sniper positions, etc. helps take out the gun, anyways. Reading back through this it came across a lot more accusatory than intended because I really do want to know why these things aren't options.

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 01:09 AM
I don't play competitive Spy so I'm not sure what you guys do during a lot of non-push time, but it seems to me that, as Heisen stated earlier, if the Engy has blocked themselves away to the point where you can't sap the gun without expending a ton of effort, why not go do other Spy stuff? Granted, the Pyro will generally be able to focus on the combo a lot more since they don't have to worry about the Spy getting the gun nearly as much. But isn't it possible to just go for a Med/Sniper/anyone-but-the-Engy pick? Or even just comm? That, in and of itself, is super helpful. Having a constant update as to where players are, if they've moved, what their uber % is, Sniper positions, etc. helps take out the gun, anyways. Reading back through this it came across a lot more accusatory than intended because I really do want to know why these things aren't options.

You make a good point, but when it comes down to it, if your team needs you in place for a push, my main focus needs to be the gun, I can take down a combo class, but it wont mean anything if my team cant kill the sentry/cap the point. I don't think it's right to just say "deal with it, do something else" either, no class should have the ability to make them immune to spies, especially not a class that the spy counters.

This is assuming that the combo isnt with the sentry, of course.

Admiral_Zagron
January 22nd, 2015, 01:27 AM
no class should have the ability to make them immune to spies
946
ok
/10banpls

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 01:37 AM
946
ok
/10banpls

While i do think the razorback is stupid, i dont think it's the same

Digresser
January 22nd, 2015, 01:42 AM
I won't address your other point because penguin and I already explained how forcing another player to do something to make your class work is stupid

With a very flawed argument. See below:


Those weapons also dont rely on COMPLETELY shutting down another class, it's still possible to kill them by other means. The spots that block access to doorways completely nullify the spies effectiveness to anybody in the area he cant get to, not just the engie and sentry.


no class should have the ability to make them immune to spies, especially not a class that the spy counters.

As many others have pointed out, Dispenser blocks do not shut down the Spy. It just prevents the Spy from walking up the stairs to the Sentry Gun. How is this different from an Engie building on one of the Ashville roofs, on the roof just before the ramp on Badwater last, on the roof of Gravel Pit B, on top of Gullywash mid, etc? Engies can use their buildings to climb/jump up to places Spies can't follow - would you have those spots banned as well? And if that's your mindset, why stop there? Why not just ban Scouts, Soldiers, Demos, Detonator Pyros, Quick-fixed Medics, Sentry-Jumping/Building-hopping Engineers from jumping to areas like that too? After all, the Spy can't backstab them there without a fortuitous Teleporter and, in some spots, probably can't even pull off a clean shot from the ground.

What it comes down to is that those two spots simply force offensive teams to have to push a little differently. Personally, I view it as a creative challenge and a nice change of pace. Teams can hammer through the rest of the points, but pushing a Dispenser blocked point usually requires putting pressure on just the right areas at the right times.


If we say that then why dont we have pro versions that fix the map flaws that were JUST banned? We're accommodating the map that way.

Because "we" don't all consider it a map flaw. Many of us just consider Dispenser blocks to be a quirk of a couple of maps. It's hardly like the maps are being ruined by them; just look at past seasons. If Badwater and Upward were updated into pro versions for other reasons too then, again, I suspect a lot of people would be interested in seeing how those holds play without the Dispenser blocks, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to get support for a custom map that has one tweak to it.

I stand by my opinion that making a rule about building Dispensers in those spots would be a disaster. It would open the door to many other requests about "unfair" building spots, would be incredibly confusing and off-putting to new players, and would lend itself to frequent disputing and debating. I understand that you feel differently, but I think that the League would be better served if changes happened to maps and not the rules about maps. If you feel that strongly about this, maybe you could work with the mapmakers to create pro versions of these maps that satisfy you, and then lobby on the forums for them to be used. Heck, maybe you could even bring these spots to Valve's attention. The stairs recently added to Upward shows that they don't mind tweaking maps. Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll agree with you that those Dispenser blocks are flaws and they'll fix them.

Zza
January 22nd, 2015, 02:01 AM
That's a bullshit excuse, that's like saying weapon bans to against vanilla tf2, not to mention the fact we LITERALLY JUST BANNED MAP FLAW EXPLOITS:

9.2 Map, weapons and* game engine exploits - *The intentional use of exploits of MAP FLAWS , weapons and game engine bugs are* not allowed. *Use of exploits in a match can result in either the round being replayed or the offending team may lose the round.*

Example #1: Engineer buildings may not be placed in areas in which the opposing team is unable to destroy them. This includes but is not limited to maps that allow* you to build a teleporter inside the spawn room itself (such as on Ashville). Exception: Some maps, like cp_steel and cp_gravelpit, have a protected area outside of the spawn room which is still behind gates (this area is defined as your team's base). You are allowed *to build engie buildings in your base (as long as it's not in your actual spawn room).**
Example #2: Players may not shoot through solid surfaces or doors that are intended to be closed. This includes but is not limited to the A door on cp_steel.
Example #3: Storing krit punches on the engineer's gunslinger is not allowed.
Example #4: Engies are not permitted to build a teleporter in the small closed off room at Red's last CP on pl_upward"

I GUESS THE LEAGUE IS A JOKE NOW BOYS, PACK IT UP, SHOWS OVER

So I honestly think you have no idea what's going on... UGC agrees that it's not an "exploit of a map flaw."




Can you still place a dispenser on that spot on Upward that blocks Spies from getting to where the Sentry is?
Yes, something that is annoying is not considered a map glitch. The same goes for Swiftwater last for example, that very annoying spot above last point on which the engie can put his sentry is not a map glitch. Those buildings can be destroyed.

Sorry I used a word that you read somewhere else in a different context. But I'm glad you are competent enough to figure out how to make big red letters ::):

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 02:04 AM
With a very flawed argument. See below:





As many others have pointed out, Dispenser blocks do not shut down the Spy. It just prevents the Spy from walking up the stairs to the Sentry Gun. How is this different from an Engie building on one of the Ashville roofs, on the roof just before the ramp on Badwater last, on the roof of Gravel Pit B, on top of Gullywash mid, etc? Engies can use their buildings to climb/jump up to places Spies can't follow - would you have those spots banned as well? And if that's your mindset, why stop there? Why not just ban Scouts, Soldiers, Demos, Detonator Pyros, Quick-fixed Medics, Sentry-Jumping/Building-hopping Engineers from jumping to areas like that too? After all, the Spy can't backstab them there without a fortuitous Teleporter and, in some spots, probably can't even pull off a clean shot from the ground.

What it comes down to is that those two spots simply force offensive teams to have to push a little differently. Personally, I view it as a creative challenge and a nice change of pace. Teams can hammer through the rest of the points, but pushing a Dispenser blocked point usually requires putting pressure on just the right areas at the right times.

Because except for certain cases like gravelpit, you cant fit a combo/sniper up there, and even if you can, you need a tele to go with it. While i feel not being able to reach the engie/gun is dumb, being able to keep your sniper and combo in an area immune to spies and in an okay position is what really differentiates the two scenarios.


Because "we" don't all consider it a map flaw. Many of us just consider Dispenser blocks to be a quirk of a couple of maps. It's hardly like the maps are being ruined by them; just look at past seasons. If Badwater and Upward were updated into pro versions for other reasons too then, again, I suspect a lot of people would be interested in seeing how those holds play without the Dispenser blocks, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to get support for a custom map that has one tweak to it.

What I was trying to say is, if we just banned map flaws(like the tele spot that is unreachable on upward), we have already admitted that the map is flawed, thus forcing the player to accommodate the map and not exploit them.


I stand by my opinion that making a rule about building Dispensers in those spots would be a disaster. It would open the door to many other requests about "unfair" building spots, would be incredibly confusing and off-putting to new players, and would lend itself to frequent disputing and debating. I understand that you feel differently, but I think that the League would be better served if changes happened to maps and not the rules about maps. If you feel that strongly about this, maybe you could work with the mapmakers to create pro versions of these maps that satisfy you, and then lobby on the forums for them to be used. Heck, maybe you could even bring these spots to Valve's attention. The stairs recently added to Upward shows that they don't mind tweaking maps. Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll agree with you that those Dispenser blocks are flaws and they'll fix them.

This will be something we're going to have to agree to disagree on

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 02:07 AM
So I honestly think you have no idea what's going on... UGC agrees that it's not an "exploit of a map flaw."

So then map flaw does = exploit? Then why did we ban something thats part of "vanilla tf2"? I'm going by your words dude

Dr. Alto H. Clef
January 22nd, 2015, 03:38 AM
So then map flaw does = exploit? Then why did we ban something thats part of "vanilla tf2"? I'm going by your words dude

are you dense
stop looking at it from a spy perspective because that's all you're doing. Just because something counters your class doesn't mean it's a map flaw. Zza's use of "map flaw" earlier was a bad word choice, because I believe he meant to say "bad design". Bad design can be used to exploit in some circumstances, but is not in and of itself exploiting. Swiftwater 4th is a poorly designed point, but is red team taking advantage of the short respawn timers exploiting? No, it's not. Engis taking advantage of a narrow staircase is the same thing: taking advantage of a map to gain an advantage. It sucks that your tactical espionage is being obstructed by a construction, and while I agree that the dispenser blocks are dumb (badwater more than upward), trying to ban it on grounds of exploiting is barking up the wrong tree.

Case in point:


no class should have the ability to make them immune to spies

Why not? What makes spy so special? This is what I was mocking in sylon's earlier post, the spy-centric viewpoint that things should be balanced around you. Demos can be "immune" to pyros with the charge n targe, the spy can be "immune" to pyros with the spycicle, hell the spy can be "immune" to any class with the dead ringer. A medic's ubercharge makes the heal target immune to all damage, should we remove that too?

While on the topic of medic:


I won't address your other point because penguin and I already explained how forcing another player to do something to make your class work is stupid

http://puu.sh/eRrR7/21e020191d.jpg

Your class is getting screwed over, so you're calling something you don't like an exploit simply because you don't like it. Deal with it.

your argument is about as substantial as turyhury's defense of the loch and load

Syath
January 22nd, 2015, 04:03 AM
That's a bullshit excuse, that's like saying weapon bans to against vanilla tf2, not to mention the fact we LITERALLY JUST BANNED MAP FLAW EXPLOITS:

9.2 Map, weapons and* game engine exploits - *The intentional use of exploits of MAP FLAWS , weapons and game engine bugs are* not allowed. *Use of exploits in a match can result in either the round being replayed or the offending team may lose the round.*

Example #1: Engineer buildings may not be placed in areas in which the opposing team is unable to destroy them. This includes but is not limited to maps that allow* you to build a teleporter inside the spawn room itself (such as on Ashville). Exception: Some maps, like cp_steel and cp_gravelpit, have a protected area outside of the spawn room which is still behind gates (this area is defined as your team's base). You are allowed *to build engie buildings in your base (as long as it's not in your actual spawn room).**
Example #2: Players may not shoot through solid surfaces or doors that are intended to be closed. This includes but is not limited to the A door on cp_steel.
Example #3: Storing krit punches on the engineer's gunslinger is not allowed.
Example #4: Engies are not permitted to build a teleporter in the small closed off room at Red's last CP on pl_upward"

I GUESS THE LEAGUE IS A JOKE NOW BOYS, PACK IT UP, SHOWS OVER

ur dum this is worse than ur csgo arguments

"THE SCOUT IS OBVIOUSLY THE BEST WEP IN THE GAME I COULD DO ANYTHING WITH THIS "

Lafaa123
January 22nd, 2015, 08:22 AM
are you dense
stop looking at it from a spy perspective because that's all you're doing. Just because something counters your class doesn't mean it's a map flaw. Zza's use of "map flaw" earlier was a bad word choice, because I believe he meant to say "bad design". Bad design can be used to exploit in some circumstances, but is not in and of itself exploiting. Swiftwater 4th is a poorly designed point, but is red team taking advantage of the short respawn timers exploiting? No, it's not. Engis taking advantage of a narrow staircase is the same thing: taking advantage of a map to gain an advantage. It sucks that your tactical espionage is being obstructed by a construction, and while I agree that the dispenser blocks are dumb (badwater more than upward), trying to ban it on grounds of exploiting is barking up the wrong tree.

Case in point:



Why not? What makes spy so special? This is what I was mocking in sylon's earlier post, the spy-centric viewpoint that things should be balanced around you. Demos can be "immune" to pyros with the charge n targe, the spy can be "immune" to pyros with the spycicle, hell the spy can be "immune" to any class with the dead ringer. A medic's ubercharge makes the heal target immune to all damage, should we remove that too?

While on the topic of medic:



http://puu.sh/eRrR7/21e020191d.jpg

Your class is getting screwed over, so you're calling something you don't like an exploit simply because you don't like it. Deal with it.

your argument is about as substantial as turyhury's defense of the loch and load


Yeah you're right, while i still think blocking is dumb trying to get it banned through UGC isnt the way to go about it.



Also syath if you don't have anything constructive or nice to say pls don't say it pls thanks

Darth Pops
January 22nd, 2015, 11:32 AM
So I thought I would come back and revisit the shit-storm that I started with dispenser blocks... Let's all be real for a minute here. Engie generally has the lowest-impact of any class in every game-mode of competitive TF2, with the exception of payload defense; and until the rescue ranger, wasn't even more than a speedbump that needed just the tiniest bit of coordination to be dealt with before moving on. The RR allowed engies who weren't script kiddies or didn't have the talent alone to jump guns into different places (like me) able to utilize them, making spots like gpit roof more prevalent.

But back to dispenser blocks... So, finally, my class is useful as more than a speed bump in one half of one game-mode. That's cool. but these dispenser spots have been around since the maps' introductions; and while spy is the hard counter to engie, he isn't the only class who can take down my buildings (and 4 times out of 5, isn't even what takes my gun down). DH solly is my biggest threat outside of a push, hands down. As to Upward last, Badwater 3rd, Swiftwater last, if you find yourself facing a dickbag engie who uses those spots (like me), Coordinate damage like you would on any other hold. Easiest way my gun goes down on badwater third is sending a solly into that room947 and spam it out. Gets me every goddamn time. Spies, don't be babies. You can have my back and my buildings on every other map and mode this season. Two halves of two maps won't kill any of you, and god forbid an engie main can actually have some fun for a change.

...And don't even get me started on all the babies wanting to ban the rescue ranger, but you can pretty much start with the above as reason #1 (Cause for godsakes its only even useful on PL defense)

Digresser
January 22nd, 2015, 12:28 PM
Yeah you're right, while i still think blocking is dumb trying to get it banned through UGC isnt the way to go about it.



Also syath if you don't have anything constructive or nice to say pls don't say it pls thanks

Not too many people admit that arguments that run against what they want might have merit. Very classy of you. Also, you're right; Syath's post didn't contribute anything and was incorrect. You aren't dumb at all.

TenaciousToaster
January 22nd, 2015, 12:54 PM
Can someone please explain why is everyone all butt hurt about the dispenser? You can jump to were the sentry is regardless by jumping from the railing to the window onto the other railing, (http://i.imgur.com/qRarHwb.jpg) plus even if there is a dispenser there you can crouch jump and walk over it into the nest.

Kobb
January 22nd, 2015, 01:14 PM
edit: removed like 80% of my post cause i realized were done talking about that.

I dont see what all the ofdahsihsafoihdsaoifhdoi is about.

GLHF (HAVE FUN U CRAZIES ITS A GAME) everyone in s15. Ill be watching from the sidelines.

Digresser
January 22nd, 2015, 01:22 PM
Can someone please explain why is everyone all butt hurt about the dispenser? You can jump to were the sentry is regardless by jumping from the railing to the window onto the other railing, (http://i.imgur.com/qRarHwb.jpg) plus even if there is a dispenser there you can crouch jump and walk over it into the nest.

You should consider actually reading the posts preceding yours. If you had, you'd probably understand that not "everyone" is upset about the Dispenser block (it's only a few people), and that the spot in question (on Upward) is on the stairs leading up to the battlements and is not where your screenshot is indicating. There is also an issue with the stairs leading up the common Badwater 3rd hold.

Additionally, no one is really "butt hurt" and the discussion has pretty much died down, I think.

Dr. Alto H. Clef
January 22nd, 2015, 01:44 PM
Schedules for Week 1 will be posted by Thursday January 22nd at the latest.

waitin on na matchups like
https://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/skeleton-computer.jpg

g..
January 22nd, 2015, 01:56 PM
waitin on na matchups like
https://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/skeleton-computer.jpg

Here's your matchup:

DOOR vs. Team that beats DOOR
0-2

joejoe347
January 22nd, 2015, 03:01 PM
Here's your matchup:

DOOR vs. Team that beats DOOR
0-2

Football gif pls

Prez Material
January 22nd, 2015, 03:26 PM
Dispenser confirmed as banned for next season because it's too good for spies.

Captainicy
January 22nd, 2015, 04:07 PM
Idk if people are still interested in more opinions, buuuut I'll add mine to the mix.

The way I see it, it is perfectly fine to place a dispenser on some stairs/in a doorway with the intention of preventing people from passing, buuut let's go through a checklist to be sure:

Is it an exploit of any kind?
No.

Is it something that might hinder the enemy while helping your team at the same time?
Yes.

In sports (or war, even, I suppose) and all, you are free to find anything you can (without "cheating" which in TF2 is usually generally defined as hacking/glitching/exploiting, which are not valid arguments here) to gain an advantage over the opponent/enemy... So why ban these spots?

I do not main Engineer or Spy, but I am (and have been before, as well) a team leader, so I look for anything and everything (within the rules of the game, and of course UGC) that my team can use to gain an advantage over the other team... and there should most certainly not be a rule to forbid building dispensers in these spots... in my opinion~

Dimento
January 22nd, 2015, 04:55 PM
Here's your matchup:

DOOR vs. Team that beats DOOR
0-2

g. vs. LFT silver

0 - 2

Mime
January 22nd, 2015, 05:40 PM
Just curious (maybe there is a way to figure this out without investing hours upon hours of looking through team rosters), is there a way to see how many new teams/players registered for S15? It'd be interesting to see how effective the playcomp.tf movement was at recruiting new players. Steel and Iron look larger compared to the past two seasons, which is positive growth in my opinion assuming that they stay involved in the community.

Penguin
January 22nd, 2015, 06:36 PM
For the sake of clarity:

upward dispenser block (http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/575651636790037795/B930D01DF81A03C62B339C9B5616D8ADB57E6D88/)

badwater dispenser block (http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/545257412225303552/4EF2ACD3FB2BE3A1A1BAB898C933F4DA6A4438DD/)

g..
January 22nd, 2015, 06:45 PM
For the sake of clarity:

upward dispenser block (http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/575651636790037795/B930D01DF81A03C62B339C9B5616D8ADB57E6D88/)

badwater dispenser block (http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/545257412225303552/4EF2ACD3FB2BE3A1A1BAB898C933F4DA6A4438DD/)

I can't tell if spy mains are joking about having this banned lmao... Come on now guys.


g. vs. LFT silver

0 - 2

Dimento vs. Dispensers

0 - 2

Dimento
January 22nd, 2015, 07:26 PM
Dimento vs. Dispensers

0 - 2
if only you knew how many times I had to explain to giraffe when he asks me to sap the gun on badwater third

Heisen
January 22nd, 2015, 10:17 PM
Why not? What makes spy so special? This is what I was mocking in sylon's earlier post, the spy-centric viewpoint that things should be balanced around you. Demos can be "immune" to pyros with the charge n targe, the spy can be "immune" to pyros with the spycicle, hell the spy can be "immune" to any class with the dead ringer. ]

ty, spy is a retarded class let's not make it better

and i main it :(

Koga
January 23rd, 2015, 04:57 AM
With a very flawed argument. See below:





As many others have pointed out, Dispenser blocks do not shut down the Spy. It just prevents the Spy from walking up the stairs to the Sentry Gun. How is this different from an Engie building on one of the Ashville roofs, on the roof just before the ramp on Badwater last, on the roof of Gravel Pit B, on top of Gullywash mid, etc? Engies can use their buildings to climb/jump up to places Spies can't follow - would you have those spots banned as well?

What you people are missing is the actual difference between these spots. You are all asking "whats different? these spots can't be reached by a spy either!" but in all reality, they are VASTLY different spots. Take Badwater Third, for example.

http://puu.sh/eUcIZ/78c4ff7c8b.jpg

The sentry covers the two direct angles that can peek it directly in a very small angle. If the engie is wrangling at that range he can easily snap to the second choke area and deny peaking from that angle. If an uber comes in from any side, the engineer can safely stand back in attic, and keep his gun wrangled and shoot rescue ranger shots at it, keeping it constantly healed. This eliminates the factor of the engie getting picked by the combo almost all together during the push. It really doesn't matter if the gun is shooting people during the uber push, since they are invulnerable anyways.
A standard hold includes at least a soldier, or ideally a soldier and a heavy up on the balcony, constantly denying the sniper from peeking from boiler, and stopping players from gaining ground from that side. If you have two players playing in that small area, the chances of your spy
1.) coordinating a whip to jump from boiler to balcony,
2.) not being noticed by two people playing at that area,
3.) (and most importantly) wiggling past two players in a very small area, and
4.) getting a pick and sap on an unsuspecting engineer is damn near impossible imo. The hold has to be inherently flawed for a spy to get there at all imo.

Between these two factors, the engineer should have a really relaxed and easy hold. Bait the blu uber, back away and heal the gun from a distance, wait for the counter-uber, and repeak with a wrangled gun. Thats what makes that hold incredibly hard to break.

Lets move to Gravelpit B!

http://puu.sh/eUhtD/80a8400e5e.jpg

The sentry on the roof of B (usually held agressively) can cover Long, Short (if wrangled), and 2 (again, if wrangled). These three sightlines are very wide apart. If the engie is holding on the roof with his gun, wrangling at short leaves him prone to a headshot from 2, wrangling at 2 leaves him prone to a headshot from short, or a soldier jump from long. If the engie wrangles at long, he is prone to a shot from 2. If he leaves it unwrangled to cover long, then the gun is prone to spam from several angles.
If the Blu team decides to push through A to 1 (as is common), the sentry gun doesn't cover the uber fight, and it will be vulnerable if he decides to move it, or useless if he decides to stay with it, and wait for the uber fight to end.

These two holds are so vastly different, that its silly to compare them together. I'm not even going to bother going over gullywash mid having a sentry on the nipple, since that area is nobuild, but even then, it has two long range areas for the other team to peek into, and have a very wide angle between them. I could go over different parts of maps where you could have a sentry at a point where the engie would have to sentry jump up to get to them, but in every example I can think of, the sentry would fail to cover at least one sightline / flank / entrance to where the team would be holding.

I'm too lazy to re-read this to see if I said anything wrong, so if I did, sorry. I can go back and fix it later or something...

stars_Jolte0n
January 23rd, 2015, 08:19 AM
I think that snipers shouldn't have to charge to do a full 450 to enemies. That way, I can instantly destroy level one dispencers.

Lafaa123
January 23rd, 2015, 08:33 AM
What you people are missing is the actual difference between these spots. You are all asking "whats different? these spots can't be reached by a spy either!" but in all reality, they are VASTLY different spots. Take Badwater Third, for example.

http://puu.sh/eUcIZ/78c4ff7c8b.jpg

The sentry covers the two direct angles that can peek it directly in a very small angle. If the engie is wrangling at that range he can easily snap to the second choke area and deny peaking from that angle. If an uber comes in from any side, the engineer can safely stand back in attic, and keep his gun wrangled and shoot rescue ranger shots at it, keeping it constantly healed. This eliminates the factor of the engie getting picked by the combo almost all together during the push. It really doesn't matter if the gun is shooting people during the uber push, since they are invulnerable anyways.
A standard hold includes at least a soldier, or ideally a soldier and a heavy up on the balcony, constantly denying the sniper from peeking from boiler, and stopping players from gaining ground from that side. If you have two players playing in that small area, the chances of your spy
1.) coordinating a whip to jump from boiler to balcony,
2.) not being noticed by two people playing at that area,
3.) (and most importantly) wiggling past two players in a very small area, and
4.) getting a pick and sap on an unsuspecting engineer is damn near impossible imo. The hold has to be inherently flawed for a spy to get there at all imo.

Between these two factors, the engineer should have a really relaxed and easy hold. Bait the blu uber, back away and heal the gun from a distance, wait for the counter-uber, and repeak with a wrangled gun. Thats what makes that hold incredibly hard to break.

Lets move to Gravelpit B!

http://puu.sh/eUhtD/80a8400e5e.jpg

The sentry on the roof of B (usually held agressively) can cover Long, Short (if wrangled), and 2 (again, if wrangled). These three sightlines are very wide apart. If the engie is holding on the roof with his gun, wrangling at short leaves him prone to a headshot from 2, wrangling at 2 leaves him prone to a headshot from short, or a soldier jump from long. If the engie wrangles at long, he is prone to a shot from 2. If he leaves it unwrangled to cover long, then the gun is prone to spam from several angles.
If the Blu team decides to push through A to 1 (as is common), the sentry gun doesn't cover the uber fight, and it will be vulnerable if he decides to move it, or useless if he decides to stay with it, and wait for the uber fight to end.

These two holds are so vastly different, that its silly to compare them together. I'm not even going to bother going over gullywash mid having a sentry on the nipple, since that area is nobuild, but even then, it has two long range areas for the other team to peek into, and have a very wide angle between them. I could go over different parts of maps where you could have a sentry at a point where the engie would have to sentry jump up to get to them, but in every example I can think of, the sentry would fail to cover at least one sightline / flank / entrance to where the team would be holding.

I'm too lazy to re-read this to see if I said anything wrong, so if I did, sorry. I can go back and fix it later or something...

Digresser's point wasn't too compare the effectiveness of either hold I don't think, but more to show that Since theres really no technical difference between the holds, as in, they both gove the engineer/ other classes invulnerability to spies, then if we ban spots like the one on badwater or upward, then the gravelpit roof holds need to be banned too.

Digresser
January 23rd, 2015, 06:10 PM
Digresser's point wasn't too compare the effectiveness of either hold I don't think, but more to show that Since theres really no technical difference between the holds, as in, they both gove the engineer/ other classes invulnerability to spies, then if we ban spots like the one on badwater or upward, then the gravelpit roof holds need to be banned too.

My point was in regard to the Spy argument, yes. Thanks :)


What you people are missing is the actual difference between these spots. You are all asking "whats different? these spots can't be reached by a spy either!" but in all reality, they are VASTLY different spots.

Who was asking that? And what do you mean, "you people"?*


*last bit is a joke, btw

Koga
January 24th, 2015, 02:37 AM
across several threads people have compared spots like those together, and you did directly... Maybe I read that completely different. But why compare a placement of a dispenser that denies a spy from being able to get into a common spot for an engie or sniper to hold, to a sentry gun that is open and vulnerable to multiple angles? Where is the logic I am missing??

Digresser
January 24th, 2015, 03:12 AM
across several threads people have compared spots like those together, and you did directly... Maybe I read that completely different. But why compare a placement of a dispenser that denies a spy from being able to get into a common spot for an engie or sniper to hold, to a sentry gun that is open and vulnerable to multiple angles? Where is the logic I am missing??

As I said in my last post, I was countering the argument that was being made about the unfairness of Spies being unable to reach buildings/people blocked by Dispensers by bringing up other spots where the Spy doesn't have access. I was not comparing the spots in any other way.

Koga
January 24th, 2015, 02:57 PM
As I said in my last post, I was countering the argument that was being made about the unfairness of Spies being unable to reach buildings/people blocked by Dispensers by bringing up other spots where the Spy doesn't have access. I was not comparing the spots in any other way.

But they aren't even similar in how they block off the spy. Having the dispenser blocking the spy has no drawbacks, whereas having your gun on a roof where you have to RJ to it, has plenty...

Koobadoobs
January 24th, 2015, 03:44 PM
But they aren't even similar in how they block off the spy. Having the dispenser blocking the spy has no drawbacks, whereas having your gun on a roof where you have to RJ to it, has plenty...

The argument was whether or not being unsappable inherently makes a hold too strong. As you and digresser pointed out, on points like gpit B the spy can't reach the sentry but that doesn't mean the hold is overpowered. You guys aren't disagreeing.

Digresser
January 24th, 2015, 04:44 PM
You guys aren't disagreeing.

Thank you.