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Thread: On dK and the state of the league

  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by spring rolls View Post
    haven't really watched this season but has pyro dm really gone up? @brick
    Meant mechanically more-so in reflecting. I think there are a few players right now as well as players in the last 4-5 seasons that just did it better and more consistently than those 10 seasons ago. In regards to actual DM, hard to say. At one point Pyros stopped W+M1'ing / airblast into corner > Melee for obvious reasons and nerfs and started using secondaries more often like Flare Gun & Shotgun. At some point inbetween s12 & s19 there was a spike in actual Pyro DM, due to a necessity of running secondaries and using them. Also now with Heavies now more passive than they ever were before, Pyros do tend to get a lil more aggressive. My perception could be a bit off because of that. Because most pyros, save cygnus & TMP, were combo oriented. Satan being the outlier. I personally think Billy is at the same DM level of Satan if not better, they have been so close in skill that I don't think anyone can objectively say differently. Their only differences have been that Satan was just more confident in what he was doing and that what he was doing was right. I think Billy has struggled with that game-sense of knowing when to play like Pyro 1 and when to play like Pyro 2. I also haven't really watched or played with Billy since S19-S20, so I can't comment on if he's relaxed more into a role of being here and there rather than just pocket-sitting.

    I personally just think that mechanically, in some aspects shotguns and other aspects reflecting, pyros have gotten better overall as time as gone on (aside from now being a general slide downward minus Billy & the scriptbot Hunter) where as the pyros before just seemingly had better awareness of what to do. I also could just be wrong and have gotten lucky to have had you, geosus & maxxuss in seasons that mattered in Plat. I've had other various pyros obviously outside those three but they were either in lower divisions or just simply weren't special, but were just rather typical pyro mains for the time. I'm also referring to a time frame of like S13 to now for Pyros compared to a time frame of S6 to s12. And shit, I'm pretty sure half the players in Plat this season weren't around for S13.

  2. #77

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    im the best pyro to ever touch the game
    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
    I am the master of my fate,
    I am the captain of my soul.

  3. #78

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    im the best pyro to ever touch this game

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post

    I personally just think that mechanically, in some aspects shotguns and other aspects reflecting, pyros have gotten better overall as time as gone on (aside from now being a general slide downward minus Billy & the scriptbot Hunter) where as the pyros before just seemingly had better awareness of what to do.
    honestly I think this is more because competition has gone down; for the past few seasons there's been so few teams that had a chance of actually breaking through and placing much better than anticipated that lower impact classes on top teams either don't have to try to improve (cause they only have 1 or 2 hard matches throughout the entire season) and those on non top teams feel it's futile anyway (or maybe they're just worse i really don't know)

  5. #80
    Member Karl's Avatar
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    I have had the best stats on heavy every single season I have played in plat. (s12 was luck because the best heavy ever, Arthur, was on GC so everyone was already dead before he had a chance to rev up lmao). I actually calculated it for all but the most recent seasons but at this point it does not even matter. s16 I was 9th in plat for all classes in kills per min

    MY EGOOOOOOOOOOOO

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustardoverlord View Post
    I promise you guys that, at his peak, ruwin was fucking ridiculous at hl and 6s
    I concur and have proof to back it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I have had the best stats on heavy every single season I have played in plat. (s12 was luck because the best heavy ever, Arthur, was on GC so everyone was already dead before he had a chance to rev up lmao). I actually calculated it for all but the most recent seasons but at this point it does not even matter. s16 I was 9th in plat for all classes in kills per min

    MY EGOOOOOOOOOOOO
    Pretzel missed 4 matches due to vacation/school so Skag had to fill in and we had less games played than you did in S13. Things probably would have been different would he have played those games.
    Last edited by Niko Jims; October 12th, 2017 at 02:32 AM.

  7. #82
    Member Jetz_'s Avatar
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    God dogfloaties was so fucking good

  8. #83
    Member Karl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko Jims View Post


    Pretzel missed 3 matches due to vacation/school so Skag had to fill in and we had less games played than you did in S13. Things probably would have been different would he have played those games.
    to be fair pretzel and skag were at least as good as me if not better then

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I have had the best stats on heavy every single season I have played in plat. (s12 was luck because the best heavy ever, Arthur, was on GC so everyone was already dead before he had a chance to rev up lmao). I actually calculated it for all but the most recent seasons but at this point it does not even matter. s16 I was 9th in plat for all classes in kills per min

    MY EGOOOOOOOOOOOO
    cmon karl why you gotta make up stuff like we both know who had the better stats in s18

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Meant mechanically more-so in reflecting. I think there are a few players right now as well as players in the last 4-5 seasons that just did it better and more consistently than those 10 seasons ago. In regards to actual DM, hard to say. At one point Pyros stopped W+M1'ing / airblast into corner > Melee for obvious reasons and nerfs and started using secondaries more often like Flare Gun & Shotgun. At some point inbetween s12 & s19 there was a spike in actual Pyro DM, due to a necessity of running secondaries and using them. Also now with Heavies now more passive than they ever were before, Pyros do tend to get a lil more aggressive. My perception could be a bit off because of that. Because most pyros, save cygnus & TMP, were combo oriented. Satan being the outlier. I personally think Billy is at the same DM level of Satan if not better, they have been so close in skill that I don't think anyone can objectively say differently. Their only differences have been that Satan was just more confident in what he was doing and that what he was doing was right. I think Billy has struggled with that game-sense of knowing when to play like Pyro 1 and when to play like Pyro 2. I also haven't really watched or played with Billy since S19-S20, so I can't comment on if he's relaxed more into a role of being here and there rather than just pocket-sitting.

    I personally just think that mechanically, in some aspects shotguns and other aspects reflecting, pyros have gotten better overall as time as gone on (aside from now being a general slide downward minus Billy & the scriptbot Hunter) where as the pyros before just seemingly had better awareness of what to do. I also could just be wrong and have gotten lucky to have had you, geosus & maxxuss in seasons that mattered in Plat. I've had other various pyros obviously outside those three but they were either in lower divisions or just simply weren't special, but were just rather typical pyro mains for the time. I'm also referring to a time frame of like S13 to now for Pyros compared to a time frame of S6 to s12. And shit, I'm pretty sure half the players in Plat this season weren't around for S13.
    man i wish I got to play in a serious season during my peak
    aeiou

  11. #86
    Member June's Avatar
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    i miss seven from imperium
    Pyro Mains :/

  12. #87

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    Personally I think it has more to do with dedication/mentality than skill. I believe KND in their prime would have been a stronger team than Ginyu in their prime. Ginyu was a team of allstars that beat you because all their individual players were just better than your counterparts. KND was a perfect example of how you could win despite that with strats and map/demo reviewing. In other eSports with vastly more competition and money involved, the latter type of team is more significant than the former. See Overwatch, where teams of Koreans with very limited prior FPS experience exploited that concept to have better teams than the ones composed of players who had top TF2, Dirty Bomb, Quake, Tribes, and CSGO experience.

    I don't think a lot of teams in TF2 except for top Invite teams actually consider that angle of improvement. Speaking from experience, if you want to be a pro OW player it's almost a necessity to review your own play and develop strategies along with your skill, not just hoping you can defeat your opponent with better mechanics.

    The reason why I think this point is relevant is because when I played in Platinum people said the same thing about our level of skill not being as good as the ones before us and it was quite frankly annoying and flawed. At the same time I don't want to sound like a hypocrit when I think that Platinum now is easier. I think the defining factor is mentality. I've heard that people in Platinum take it less seriously now than before, therefore the competition is weaker and to me because KND took Highlander more seriously than anyone else and won multiple relevant championships, at their peak they definitely would've competed with the best before them (Ginyu, GC, older mTs, Street Hoops).

    Also just another rant coming from me but in hindsight it was kind of stupid how mTs was often top 2 in their run ins without taking Highlander that seriously. Frankly I think that was also representative of other Platinum teams not trying as hard as they could have. Then again TF2, especially Highlander, is not an eSport so it totally makes sense that such a high amount of dedication and team cohesion was missing back then unless you were on teams like Street Hoops, KND or dK.
    Last edited by Bowswer5; October 12th, 2017 at 11:20 AM.

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowswer5 View Post
    Personally I think it has more to do with dedication/mentality than skill. I believe KND in their prime would have been a stronger team than Ginyu in their prime. Ginyu was a team of allstars that beat you because all their individual players were just better than your counterparts.

    I'm not sure which Ginyu team you're talking about but the original S9 practiced harder than every other team that season to win. We scrimmed twice a night fri/sat/sun and pregame monday, did map/demo reviews, strat talks, etc... Also half the team played 6s together every other night of the week. S11 Ginyu was an ever better team and, though they didn't scrim quite as much, I'm pretty sure they did everything else. S11 Ginyu were HEAVY favorites until Ruwin bitched out in playoffs and they made the mistake of cutting Xalox instead of him. There was a TON of effort put in by basically every team in plat in those days, so I'm not sure where this sentiment comes from.

    In point of fact I'd actually say a solid reason that those older teams may have been better is exactly because so many of them were trying hard and competitive enough to push each other to be better. That's something that's not happening lately simply because of a larger skill divide. That whole group of players basically left after s12 though.

    I agree that prime KND would have been competitive because they're easily one of the best HL teams ever, but I still think there'd be a clear edge to teams like s11 ginyu/20b, GC, and mts.

  14. #89

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    I like this new oblivion

  15. #90

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    To add on to what Huey said, most Plat teams scrimmed Thursdays as well, while some of the top plat teams now only scrim on Sundays and pre-game. This was on top of all the pugging people did. Current Plat is shit because there's not enough dedication. People just play a season or two and then quit, teams don't last very long at all or if they do, they either don't care enough or refuse to improve (whether that be on purpose or accidental). The problem isn't money, the problem is purely mentality because people back then actually enjoyed the competition and enjoyed improving and just enjoyed the game. There was no money involved, yet people tried harder, much harder. And it wasn't even like they were "WE GOTTA WIN OR ELSE!", people just liked to win and get better. The same thing happened with 6's, actually. Bitch about "The Top 3", "Top 3" die, suddenly the people that said they would try didn't show up and the scene got fucked up the ass and still hasn't recovered. People seem to think that the game being "dead" means they suddenly can't play it seriously or something. Also mTs actually scrimmed the season they first won plat.

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